Wednesday, September 24, 2008

"Empire City" Church's first service in NYC

40 visitors? = there's a sucker born every minute.

Back in 1994, I attended my first church service of the NYC Church of Christ. I was 19 years and ready to make a change not only in my life, but to change the world as well. That service was actually a performance of Upside Down. Remember that play? People from all over the Northeast and beyond had come to see that show.

I remember checking out my second church service at a hotel near my parent's place just a few states away. There were at least 3 services going on in this hotel, and the one I ended up at had some people who had been on wheelchairs lying in the back, wailing. I learned that I had ended up at some Pentecostal service - not the ICC. Not that I could honestly tell that much of a difference, except for the wailing.

When I finally figured out how to recognize an ICC service, I found they were more like the ones pictured in the link at the Empire ICC city site.

Pretty bland - a conference room, mediocre singers, a young man who thinks more highly of himself than he'd ever admit and a soft pseudo-humble expression on his face when people approach him.

If you look at the front row, you'll see the old master, Kip, with his overgrown mullet. He still thinks he's going to change the world with that humble little service in some random NYC hotel.

All I know is that people keep giving him money.

When will you all ever learn? Took me a while til I finally did. It doesn't matter how cognitively intelligent you are - it's about what grabs your emotions. And he knows how to do it.

When you want to change the world, better watch out for those who want to change - and shortchange - you.

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Thursday, November 29, 2007

Say it Bro!

From my fave 'bro' Pope:

Wow. Another "new" movement? Seriously, what kind of rickety old incompetent god do these people worship that he'd send them back to the city that kicked their asses? "This time it's gonna stick!" so sayeth the Lord. Even the local cult knows better than to have anything to do with Kip. At least Jesus had enough self respect to say something about dust, feet and wiping. Anyone who'd have something to do with Kip at this point is a moron. It seems that Kip has to go to smaller and smaller towns to find someone dumb enough to believe his hype. I have no idea who this DJ guy is, but he is obviously the result of much barrel scraping.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007

Kip's new "Empire City International Christian Church"... Wha?

I don't know how Kip came up with this idiotic name for his new NYC church planting. It sounds like a name some confused tourist picked up. And I love the pic of the douches that are now leading this new "movement" - DJ & Kacie!

DJ & Kacie pictured atop the Empire State Building!
DJ & Kacie pictured atop the Empire State Building!

BTW, DJ and Kacie want you to contact them...

Please, if you are interested, give Kacie and me a call at 740-334-2396 or email me at dj@caicc.net. And to God be all the glory He wants and so deserves!

Mwah hah.
Just in time. Following the ICOC had gotten totally boring...

Thread
DJ's article

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Monday, October 03, 2005

IS IT IN YOU? Life changing! Spirit lifting! Fun! Exciting!

The New York City Church of Christ asks their singles:

IS IT IN YOU?

I'm sure some of those women leading the seminars wish it was...

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Saturday, September 17, 2005

Who's with who?

Who's with Kip? Who's with LA? Who cares?

ICOCNews created a map of various large churches' positions, according to these criteria: 1) Kip McKean 2) LA 3) Autonomous.

In any case, it's simpler to look at the Rejecters - here's an overview, based on letters from individual church web sites.

ANTI-Kip's call: LA, Boston, Seattle, Phoenix, Orlando, St. Louis, San Diego
ANTI-LA call to Unity: Atlanta, Vancouver, Orlando, St. Louis, San Diego
ANTI-both calls: Orlando, St. Louis, San Diego

If you have ideas on where your church or other churches stand, particularly New York City, Washington DC, San Francisco, Chicago, Miami, Triangle, etc. feel free to comment. I also suggest looking under the ICC DF's "Current Leadership Writings" for posts on different cities' responses to these developments.

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004

Lisa Johnson's Comments on the Abuses

She says she thought incidents of abuse were "isolated." Very similar to what the ICOC automatons say now.

Compare Lisa Johnson's quotes from 1990 vs. right after the HK letter (1990 taken from the rightcyberup website)

"Now this – I mean this sisters. I mean this, this is from the bottom of my heart. This is what I came to say today, to you. I believe that you have quit believing that grace will motivate people. You, personally. Take it personally. Take it individually. I believe that is one of the major problems in our movement, today. We must see it. I’ve seen the dangers, the abuses, the results of it, it is horrendous, it is sickening, it is frightening. We have got to trust that grace motivates people. We don’t need the things that we use to motivate people....

“I’m at the point where I feel like we just need to shut up and read the Bible. That it’s getting dangerous some of the things we tell each other, some of the things that we’ve done. I’m upset and I’m scared about it. I think that we have got to make a decision to repent. You know, the abuses are amazing – we begin to crystallize things – we’ve talked about it before, but sisters it’s time to change it.”

Lisa Johnson (World Sector Leader – Women), Crashing Through The Quitting Places: Discipleship, Women’s Retreat, Boston, audio tape, 1990. (about audio clips)

Now 13 years in the 2003 letter she claims she didn't know it was happening in NY (taken from her apology letter which can be found on the web).

"I'm sorry for believing (chokes) the New York church was different, that we only had isolated incidences of pain and hurt and abuse. I even thought that I was different..."

Both Lisa's and Steve's letters are here: http://www.newcovpub.com/icc/johnson_apology.htm

One could say that the first quote was in Boston and not NY (her own church) but I don't recall hearing much from her between 1990 to present about the church wide abuse issues. Did anyone else? She did see it back in 1990.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCDiscussion/messages?msg=12829.1

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Tuesday, February 03, 2004

The Famous Fireplace in Steve Johnson's Bathroom
Paid for by us who were suckers in the NYCOC. Paid for by the BENEVOLENCE funds. Click "more pictures" to see YOUR fireplace in the NYC lead evangelist's bathroom. It's selling for almost One Million, by the way... I'd like to get my damn tithe back!!

Steve Johnson's home

Steve Johnson's fireplace in the bathroom

Remember how people packed themselves into nasty small apartments with 10 roommates? So we could pay tithe? THIS is what we paid for. Remember single moms? This is where the money went that they DIDN'T receive.

It is truly Disgusting.

Nothing angers me more than this kind of greed and hypocrisy. EVERYONE should see these pictures.

Apparently SJ put a bunch of money from some shady thing at Software.com (one of the Boston ICOC Board of Directors was a Software.com VP) to pay for renovations for the place. Check out the NYCOC and ICC DF threads on the Software.com issue and the SJ House:

NYCOC: Steve Johnson's home on sale for $1M!

NYCOC: Steve Johnson House -- photos

ICC DF: Is this REALLY Steve Johnson's house?

ICC DF: PHOTOS OF STEVE JOHNSON'S HOUSE

Interesting ICOC Stats site
I added a new link for a web site called Icocstats.org. It's written by a "faithful" ICC member, and interestingly enough leaves out the 2003 stats. Does anyone have numbers for any church in 2003?

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Monday, January 26, 2004

NYCOC Financials: More Evidence of Their Greed.

Out for all to see. Look at the numbers carefully - D&T declares the financial statements present the full picture fairly.

Note the Benevolence numbers:
Revenues for Benevolence, page 3: $661,485
Expenses for Benevolence, page 9: $ 92,540


That's $568,945 that went into their pockets. That could have gone to single moms, people in genuine need. Not to mention the many who were literally starving to pay tithe.

From icocnews.com:



The New York City Church of Christ 2002 Audited Financial Statements are now available. The audit was performed by Deloitte & Touche, and the statements can be viewed by clicking on the link provided.


ICC DF and NYCOC both have discussions on this topic.

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Monday, October 27, 2003

Henry Kriete in NYC
Kriete came to NYC to preach. He also did some Q&A sessions, which you can see posted on the NYCOC forum.


HK in NYCOC: Q&A session (first question posted below)

Post your response to HK Q&A session here.


Henry Kriete Q&A session in NYC

Here is the scoop on the question & answer session that Henry gave to a small meeting this weekend in Manhattan. These are the same questions he gave to the service on Sunday. At the smaller meeting, he answered these questions on the fly, and don't think he skipped any. I saw. I asked hard questions and he did answer them. He emphasized that he is not a spokesperson for the ICOC. He also said that since he is very conflicted, his answers could change. "I am in a major transition," he said.
Before these sessions, Henry did a sermon as well, and it was mainly all scriptures about Jesus. No recruiting or evangelization ICCisms.

I have the recordings of his answers, but for now I'll paraphrase his answers from my notes. I'm at work so this will consist of a few posts... I am closing this thread to responses. Please see the Response folder to post responses. Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------
Q: Is the ICOC a cult?
A: That is an emotionally loaded question for me. Is Heather here? (LOL) I don't want to be evasive, but - if you were a cult leader... LOL... you don't find the word cult in the Bible, but you do find "sect," "arrogance," etc. The ICOC is a Sect with cult-like tendencies. I would say that some of the ICOC leaders ARE cult leaders. Others are not.

Also, I was never given mandates, "You must preach this or that." But we cannot deny that we had a culture of control. Invasiveness. Bad theology. Abberational theology.

I do believe there's ONE body, one church. But NOT the "One True Church" ICOC-style. If you are a Christian, you are part of the body. You are united to the body.

But for the record: I am DONE with the ICOC, and have cut ALL affiliation with it. (Later he states that Vancouver church refused to sign an affiliation agreement with the ICOC.)

[additional notes:]
I'm here to support you. The stonewalling with the finances... What happened in NYC is a tragedy. I respect your decision to leave the church.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/nycoc/messages?msg=345.1 "Henry Kriete's Question & Answer Session"

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Tuesday, September 02, 2003

MASS EXODUS FROM NYCOC: How many people have left the NY Church?

There's a new poll on NYCoC discussion asking your opinion on how many people have left the New York City church so far. Well over half the respondents have replied "Over 70%" or "50% to 70%."

Check out the poll and vote if you have any opinion on the "exodus" percentage, and back it up with a reply.


Other churches

This is also rather late, but the London church also sent out a scoffing reply to Kip's letter. Some of you probably already know about it, but check it out here.

Note: I've fixed the "ICOC Blogspots" links. You have to scroll down through the pages (easiest to do a "Ctrl-F" to find keywords), but at least you can locate the right archive. This will have to do until I figure out a better system.

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Tuesday, August 12, 2003

No "official" Henry Kriete response yet so far. Here is an interesting point CLEARDATEMPL makes on the NYCOC DF about ICC politics:

The ICC is political in many ways.
The ICC was/is a microcosm unto itself. A full fledged FASCIST OLIGARCHY. A virtual Utopia with it's own AGENDA, PROPOGANDA & THOUGHT REFORM! The weekly brainwashings..umm.. I mean sermons consisted of repetitive messages conditioning our minds into homogeneity.

"The Kingdom, d-group, DP, follow-up, visitors, stats, bt, zones, sectors etc" Independence, the sin of rebelliousness and nonformity for the sake of unity are slogans that embody church politics & imprison members within its boundries.

I had a roomate who worked on a councilman's campaign a few years ago. Many of us here vote on a national & local level but we debate more on community issues. more proactive than reactive.

I think if Kip or the other ICC uppers were to be more politically outspoken, they would only attract more attention from the outside to their cultic teachings & unethical business practices.

Yet at the same time, ICC is also a multi-million dollar corporation and America is run by corporations. The government, like much of the ICC lower leaders are just puppets of a corporate machine. So in this sense ICC is analagously political Capitalism is its master.

I found that ICC congregations also tend to reflect their geographical makeup and the majority of the United States is still ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE & Puritanical in thought. From my travels, there are really only pockets of liberalism. Thats why many progressive & free thinkers move to big cities like NYC, LOS ANGELES, SAN FRAN, MIAMI etc. because we reflect that .

I always felt The Manhattan NYCOC was one of the most liberal from all the other ICC's in the US. and even with that said, it was still a very jacked up place to be.Though many disciples here were funky, creative artists,(brothers who had long hippie hair were encouraged to cut it off. I was rebuked once for getting a nose ring against advice.) INDIVIDUALITY was not encouraged especially if one was to be considered for leadership. Upper leadership seemed to have a Banana Republic dress code and blonde hair and /or good looks was instant qualification. If you did'nt fit that mold you were deemed "rebellious ","out there" or "not sharp".
Anyway I'm just rambling at this point.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2003

Those Clever NY Leaders
Rumors abounded that 7/22 Manhattan Midweek was going to be Sam's "You're Either In, or You're Out" of the Cult *cough* Church. Translation: Either you give us our Money ("tithe") or not. However, it turned out to be a rather anticlimactic night, according to this report.

Main message from the leaders: We're STILL in control, but we're going to "humble out" so you will still let us get our paychecks.

Seems like more people are refusing to buy this crap. (It took this long to see it? Better late than never.) However I personally know more than a few people, who are otherwise intelligent people, who refuse to give up, want to stay and "fight" these leaders.

Wanna fight? Leave and take out another piece of their already dwindling pie. Aren't you sick of them justifying their inflated paychecks? "Get it" already!!!



To All:
I attended my last mid-week last night, and I am jubilant!! It was a very sleek presentation. A brother (Rolf S.) was brought in from another sector to make sure the singing was great. The key word was "appeal". All of the loyal gaurds were there. Jim Brown (famous for his heart to heart talks), Sam Powell (visibly swallowing his pride), Scott Davis (what does Queens have to do with Manhattan?), Robert Cario? (New Jersey?), Dale Porter (does this Sataten Island elder really believe what he's saying?), Steve Johnson (he did'nt sit with the other pharisees in their front row, place of honor), Norman Vulssshulte?(happy as a puppy now that his masters are home), and Paul Ramsey and John Bean (both visibly uncomfortable on stage, and ready to run at a moments notice of a revolt). These were the Southern gentlemen and their co-conspirators for the evening.
Sheridan began with an "appeal" to us to let them help us. He "believes" he is an evangelist. He feels pressure from people asking that he step in, and others telling him to stay away. He "feels" that God put him there to lead. He talked about the "rumors" regarding his taking over Manhattan as an evangelist and starting a secret service. He is in Jersey on Tuesday's and can only make it on Wednesdays. He feels that he should be involved with the transition groups. He is working with primetime and daytime. Elders and evangelists will be giving direction.
Dale Porter, the elder that no one knows, started out by asking "What went wrong? Where are we headed now?" He said "When men of authority are not held accountable, bad things happen. It's more dangerous when good men are not held accountable." He then rehashed the obvious, ie, elders were not leading, it was a one man show, yadda, yadda, yadda.He said that more elders will be appointed and that the congregation will hold them accountable. He suggested that although we consider discipling a bad word, "we need each other."
Sam started out by recanting some of what he said the last time he was there. The "I'm the elder for the Bronx" madness and such. His goal is to "promote unity and love". "The Bible needs to be our standard." He apologized for his offensive statements. He believes Sheridan can lead this group where it wants to go. We must do everything we do by the book. Give them a chance.........He needs to deal with his issues and his heart as in Matt 18.
John Bean had a prepared speech. He spoke about the finance group. Either he or Paul Ramsey (I've forgotten which) called them liars. Paul Ramsey (Dir. of Human Resources) said that the church office is not corrupt or negligent. He feels that all of their administrators are "men of integrity". He said that we should not believe the rumors.
Sam then gave kudos to Norman Vulssshulte saying that "He stood in the trenches, while a lot of people have left", referring to former leaders and evangelists. Sheridan then shared something from Ephesians 14, and announced that Sam Powell and Steve Kinnard would be there next Tuesday.
I could comment, but I think you get the gist of things. In a nice way, they took over. As I said at the beginning, that was my last service, and therefore, I can't say that I have much more to say about them. I will focus on putting this behind me, and helping others to heal, so you probably will not hear much from me. Thank you all for your input, and may God grant you whatever you are looking for.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7681.83 "Manhattan Rocks!"

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Thursday, July 17, 2003

Manhattan takes a stand.
A group has found another place to worship away from the Sam Powells and Sheridan Wrights of the ICOC "Kingdom." Hey, nice diss! Hope you all do more than just change your name.

I am extremely excited to announce that we have found a worship space for
the entire region. We have found a meeting place where the entire body can
come together and worship God. The first service will be this Sunday at
4:30pm, the location is 76th Street and Central Park West. The space is
more expensive than we originally anticipated, it comes out to $1500 for
sunday, therefore we are asking anyone, who can and would like, to
contribute towards the space. On sunday please see any of the brothers from
the finance commitee, with whatever you feel like donating, please don't
feel obligated if you can't afford to offer anything. The space is
beautiful and completely insured it is being paid for by the support of
generous disciples and is separate of the church office. So we would like
to request for you to please invite your friends, any brothers and sisters
who might have stopped coming to services to church this Sunday. Let us
pray that Sunday will be a day pleasing to the Lord. Again the location is
76th Street and Central Park West this Sunday at 4:30pm.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7635.1 "Manhattan ignores Sam and Sheridan"

Kip Lite
Below is "Kip lite" -- some highlights from the letter by JUSTXD on ICC DF


We are fragmenting as a fellowship. Many disciples are in agony, caused by years of feeling unable to measure up to the “law” and judged as not “doing well spiritually.” They have been weakened by spiritual malnourishment, fulfilling Paul’s words, “the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” Surely the hand of God is against us for not taking care of the weak.
Persecution, Satan’s attack from the outside, has rarely caused our churches long-term damage. However, grumbling and bitterness by both leaders and members have allowed the Devil to enter our sacred fellowship and begin to destroy it from within.

In the ensuing months, many of our individual congregations have likewise declared their own autonomy. The implementation of these decisions has already reaped disastrous results on the mission field. Funding for third world churches in many places has sharply decreased or is no longer available.

Many disciples are appalled to see their fellowship turning lukewarm and complacent --resembling the churches many of them came out of to become true disciples. People are watering down, and in some cases, totally abandoning basic Bible principles of discipleship due to the hurts resulting from “one sinner discipling another.” All over the world there are situations where vocal Korah-like grumblers are allowed to blast the church and God’s anointed servants.

The beauty of going anywhere in the world and finding like-minded disciples is gone.

The dream to evangelize the world in our generation has almost died.

As the leader of the churches until my sabbatical in October 2001, I take full responsibility for the decisions that were made by the World Sector Leader Group while I was leading as well as the consequences of my sins of leadership.

At the end of the year 2000, a great Jubilee was held in Los Angeles to celebrate the completion of the “Six Year Plan” as outlined in the Evangelization Proclamation. At that time God had planted disciples in 171 nations!

Because I was no longer in a position of authority, people felt much freer to share their criticisms.

The phone had stopped ringing. For the first time I began to realize that many of my relationships existed only because of my role.

My sins are clear and grievous. I have been arrogant, almost always thinking I was right. I did not listen. I did not actively seek discipling for me and my family. I was only partially open and deceit came into my life. This led to the sin of anger towards those who disagreed with me. Too often, I viewed these individuals as critical. I did not draw people out. I built an atmosphere in which people were afraid to speak up. There were times when I corrected people that I was mean, cruel and I even humiliated them.

Too often I would value talent and charisma over heart and spirituality. I lacked respect for people with different talents than mine. I also was too slow in allowing the relationships with my young “Timothys” to grow up from parent/child relationships into adult/adult mutual discipling relationships. Another sin was that I failed to resolve conflict. I miserably failed to reconcile brothers and sisters, particularly from the World Sector Leader group, who were in sharp disagreement with each other and with me. I believe that this, in time, led to unresolved issues in the relationships between world sectors and individual congregational leaderships.

Ultimately, my most devastating sin was claiming God’s victory as mine. In pride, I boasted in “my” accomplishments. I allowed people to give me glory; I did not refocus them to God.

Moved by the grace of God, my heart’s desire is to once more teach fellow transgressors to turn back to God.

I questioned whether God would use me again.

For those not familiar with our history, let me retell what God has done.

As with the Jews of the first century church, this influx of mature, seasoned disciples provided a constant fountain of leadership that helped propel God’s movement to all the Gentiles around the world.

In 1979 in Boston, Massachusetts, God gathered 30 would-be disciples in the Gempels’ living room. The Spirit put on our hearts three common convictions that in time would produce a group of true Christians dedicated to evangelizing the world by restoring the lost principles and practices of God’s people:

Unprecedented in the mainline churches, from 1983 on there were more than daily baptisms in the Boston Church that evidenced the grace of God. God was with us.

Continuing to study the Scriptures, the next conviction that easily followed was: the true church Jesus died for is composed of only true Christians, disciples.

In 1981, the Holy Spirit put on our hearts a plan to evangelize the world.

Though our critics multiplied, our Father in heaven multiplied the disciples even faster.

(It must be stated here I have always believed there were Christians –“baptized disciples”-- outside of our fellowship.)

I was determined to unify these disciples into a single brotherhood by calling them to leave the dying churches they were affiliated with and come into one of the Boston ministry churches.

HOPE worldwide, because it was centered in good works, shielded God’s evangelists and churches from persecution in several countries including even the United States.

By 1994, when the Evangelization Proclamation was written, God’s movement encompassed 140 churches in 53 nations.

Though there have been a few scattered divorces, mostly because of the sin of adultery, if you are married in our fellowship of churches and remain as faithful disciples, your marriage is almost assured of fulfilling the vow “until death do us part.”

Also true Christians wrote over 140 book titles published by Discipleship Publications International (DPI) and translated into numerous languages.

There was also a growing distance and distrust between the full-time ministry people and those with secular jobs. These were the seeds Satan planted that would begin to destroy what God had obviously built.

As God’s family, we have seen the miracles of God and rightly assumed God is with us. The real issue is not, “Is God on our side?” but rather, “Are we on God’s side?” We became enamored with “God is on our side” and lost the focus of seeking to remain on God’s side.

At this current hour in God’s kingdom, false teachers masquerading as angels of light are preying upon misguided, bitter disciples. With half-truths, these teachers have not only undermined the integrity and thus the authority of leadership, particularly evangelists, but also have introduced disruptive false doctrines that have been embraced by insecure congregational leaderships.

1) Every person is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 2:8,9) To accept this grace and become a true Christian, each person must believe in Jesus as the resurrected Son of God, repent of his or her sins, make the decision to be a disciple and then be baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We have chosen to most often refer to Christians as disciples since the terms “Christian” and “believer” have become so undefined.

2) God adds the baptized disciple to his church universal. (Acts 2:41) The church universal is all of the disciples in the world that God sees when he looks down from heaven into people’s hearts, whether they are in the ICOC, mainline Church of Christ, the Christian Church, in breakaway small groups or a single disciple in a denominational church. However, we have tried to use God’s standards in building the visible church, in which each congregation should be composed of only baptized disciples.

Remember the poor. Through our personal sacrifice, local congregations and through HOPE worldwide, like Paul, we have been eager to remember the poor.

What once was a joyous sacrifice for missions became a burdensome missions contribution multiple given under compulsion. What once was the spirit of a disciple to go anywhere, do anything, give up everything, in time became the same behavior without the heart. What once was charitable Christian advice and direction became authoritarian dictates which sometimes violated the consciences of the recipients, thus causing resentment and anger.

Many have concluded the reason for all of this sin, disorder and bitterness was “the system” – World Sector Leaders, discipleship partners, Bible Talks, megachurches, the “Study Series,” etc. (Some have even gone so far as to call it the “evil” system.) A system is simply applying Biblical principles to create methods.

The question must be asked, “Are we the movement of God, or at least a movement of God, or have we become simply a fellowship of saved disciples?”

As for me, two years ago when one of my children fell away,
Many of the Kingdom Teachers and World Sector Elders came to the specific opinion that each World Sector Leader would be disqualified from his role if one of his children was not a faithful disciple. Therefore, I needed to step down from the role of leading the movement.

Also, the Gempels and Bairds felt that over the next few months the bitterness would dissipate if the bitter World Sector Leaders would just speak freely without Elena and me saying anything in response to free them from their attitudes.

The combination of independently run World Sectors, the lack of opportunity for the confronted leader to respond, and an underlying bitterness produced by sins within the World Sector Leaders’ leadership proved to have catastrophic consequences.

However, with no higher authority ready to reinforce the credibility and authority of each of the World Sector Leaders, their influence in their groups began to crumble.

Thinking that stepping down would help unite the leaders and eliminate criticism and bitterness, Elena and I chose to step down the first night of the Unity Meeting in LA in November, 2002.

It is my personal conviction that some among our number who wanted to reshape the governance and doctrine of the movement were more influenced by their backgrounds in the mainline church than they were aware.

Since there was so much distrust revealed at the LA Unity Meeting, it was not surprising that when some of the Geographic Sector Leaders returned to their home congregations, they found the same mistrust, anger and hurt in their own staffs and memberships as well. In retrospect, it is easily understood that they simply reaped from their own people what they, in many cases unconsciously, had sown: the attitude of mistrust of those who led and discipled them. (Matthew 7:1-5)

I have learned that autonomy is defined differently by brothers that I deeply respect. I shall define an autonomous congregation as one that is totally void of any influence, direction and authority from any other church or individual. (This is the practice of the mainline Churches of Christ.) Therefore, autonomy is inherently disunity, the antithesis of brotherhood.

Though no one would dare breathe these words, the desire for autonomy in some is the desire to have their own kingdom. This is where the mainline Church of Christ preachers, though I believe many were good-hearted, went astray.

Because there were no other evangelists or elders overseeing their work, with no one in their lives, many gave in to the temptation to compromise their zeal, compromise the Word of God and/or compromise their purity. Romans 13 teaches that all authority (someone over you) is from God, and is meant to protect, not harm.

It was in this atmosphere that Henry Kreite wrote his letter, Honest to God. With the central leadership of the kingdom now being nonexistent, there was no “church leadership” to answer. Since the letter contained many elements of truth mixed with misinformation and bitterness, there was an outcry in many parts of our fellowship for a need to change “the system” and many of the ways we do things.

Henry advocated “a time for anger and the overthrowing of temples. I believe that time is now.” He urged churches to have “open forums” which further poisoned the membership towards the leaders as a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. In my opinion, a license to sin was handed to bitter disciples who, under the guise of “freedom in Christ,” often spoke publicly with malice and slander towards the ministry leaders and those who led them.

With no central leadership, and the fear that to respond was to be defensive, the leaders, particularly the evangelists, became weary, lost heart and many left the full-time ministry.

With the questioning of the “one-over-one” discipling and the elimination of the lead evangelist’s role in larger congregations came the erosion of the Biblical role of an evangelist being “over in the Lord” the churches in his geographic charge, even when those congregations had elders. This paradigm shift caused the evangelists who worked in these fields to lose their personal dreams to do great things because they were now limited to a smaller group in a single city.

Another mitigating factor in the erosion of this role came from Henry Kriete’s questioning of the way that money was spent, i.e. the lifestyles and the salaries of the evangelists. He also charged that there was deceit surrounding our missions contributions and the way the funds were spent. This charge was in spite of the fact that our administrators have diligently practiced the highest ethical standards of accounting and all of our large churches are audited annually by the most reputable accounting firms.

Up to this point, as a brotherhood, we believed that evangelists overseeing several congregations had the “right” to expect some pay from these congregations.

Alarmingly, our weekly and missions contributions have plunged, not because of the sagging economy, but primarily because of people’s loss of confidence in church leadership.

Autonomy breeds not only selfishness in finances, but a breakdown in advancing the kingdom. This is to our shame.

“What happened to the church where Henry served?” since his letter called the London Church to be “the epicenter of a ‘new movement’ of God?” The evangelist who was leading the London Church is American and his wife is French. Because they lost the confidence of a section of the London staff through their leadership sins, and because they were not British nationals, elected moderators asked them to resign without even consulting the church. Because the new church leaders adopted autonomy, there was no outside authority to back the foreign evangelist and to challenge the people to give the couple a chance to repent.

Pat Gempel, my mother in the faith, falsely accused of nepotism because at one time her three children and their spouses were all in the ministry.

When Nehemiah heard about the burned gates and the broken-down walls of his beloved Jerusalem, he wept. He prayed. He determined that he personally would return to Zion to help restore the wall.

In the midst of all the chaos in our fellowship, with unparalleled disunity between Christians, with so few people being saved, with so many leaving our brotherhood and with all the discussions about church governance, we need to stop and simply remember how great our God is and that there is nothing that is impossible for him.

I must confess right here that when I saw the extent of the crumbling wall, when I felt pain because of my sins and those who sinned against me, I and others began to very seriously wonder if we needed to once again start a new movement that could evangelize the world.

Since bitterness was unconsciously discipled through the levels of leadership, leaders must consciously exemplify and teach, and thus disciple, mercy and forgiveness into their relationships with each other and their flock. God must be grieving that many evangelists and elders still have bad attitudes toward those who were or are “over them in the Lord.” (I Thessalonians 5:12) For forgiveness to be a yeast that leavens the whole batch, it must begin with the leadership. Then God’s mercy working through us will heal our wounds and restore those cherished relationships.

Essential to this healing, and to my knowledge not boldly addressed, is the need for the membership to humbly beg for forgiveness from the leadership –for their bitterness, gossip, dissension, envy, disrespect and insensitivity to the devastating impact their rebellious spirits have had on the leaders and their families.

Sadly, several of our ministers have been so devastated that they have decided to leave the ministry because their repentance was not responded to with forgiveness.

According to the Scriptures, to grumble and be bitter toward leadership is to grumble against God.

Discipling is how you got saved! It is why there are churches of thousands that did not even exist just a few years ago. To stop discipling people within our congregations will mean that the untold thousands in our cities will die untold. Discipling is not only for the salvation of the lost, but I believe it is the salvation of the saved.

Discipling gave warmth to our fellowship and distinctiveness to our brotherhood.

We must not abandon discipling. We must reaffirm it because it is one of the key ways God changes us through the Spirit and the Word.

We believe that we should “be silent where the Bible speaks and speak where the Bible is silent.”

I have learned over the past few years that I was very wrong to discourage people with mental health challenges to seek professional advice and, when prescribed, to feel good about using medicinal treatments. God certainly works through doctors and professional counselors.

In terms of specific prohibitions, the reason the mainline church believes only in a capella singing (no instruments) is that in the New Testament, in the book of Acts and the letters, there is no mention of instruments in worship. Therefore, since they believe in a strict “be silent where the Bible is silent,” they believe it is sinful to use instruments in the worship.

The mainline church called themselves a brotherhood, but in fact there were multitudes of congregations in one city who did not fellowship each other.

A catchy phrase developed in the Churches of Christ segment of the Restoration movement was: “Bible things by Bible names.” It sounds so right. And yet, it leads to a narrowness of thinking as well as boundaries to our God-given creativity. (Remember, the word “Bible” is not in the Bible; the word “Scripture” is. So should we not call the Bible, “The Bible?”)

. However, if we are to once more become an advancing, growing movement of God, then our leaders must be men of great faith. After a period of time, if a congregation is not growing, then I believe the leadership needs to repent of their lack of faith and intensify their learning from other congregations. If their church still does not grow, then the evangelist (the man who leads the evangelistic charge) needs to step down and seek further training from another evangelist. The elders need to pray that God will send them an evangelist they can follow (and shepherd) as they build the church as a team.

We must never forget that our perfect God has chosen to work through imperfect men to fulfill his mission. This glorifies our God all the more. Central leadership, godly men surrounding God’s chosen leader, was present in each of the Old Testament movements,

I would encourage us all to pray that God will make it financially possible to return to the ministry all the people who left but feel called to serve again.

(Let me say right here that I do not believe the office of apostle and the corresponding miraculous gifts are present today.)

Also, only evangelists appointed elders as well as other evangelists. We do not see an example in the Scriptures of one eldership giving direction to another eldership. (In time, many of our evangelists will become elders. Only in this way should an elder give direction to another church, but it is by virtue of being an evangelist, not an elder.)

I would like to suggest that our new central leadership be called “The Council of the Brotherhood” -- comprised of missions evangelists (those that have geographic charge over numerous churches) as well as selected elders.

We feel obligated to God not to receive an undue amount of salary, but simply enough to provide for our families.

The results were that our top leaders were paid less than the top leaders of the denominations and the lower level leaders were paid more than in the denominations. The average income for our ministers is generally in line with the average income for denominational ministers.

If being in the full-time ministry is not the call for those of our number with the most God-given gifts/talents of leadership, then our ministers will be like the ministers of so many denominations who are either average or socially inept, have good hearts, but cannot lead people.

Also many married women have treasured the opportunity to work side by side in the Lord’s vineyard with their husbands.

The Lord has blessed us with the most baptisms this semester from the campus that there have been in several years.

We have firmly decided that we simply in good conscience cannot spend the rest of our lives in tears in Babylon. If we as leaders and members do not radically repent, then I believe God will look to start again.

6. Giving: We need to radically repent in our weekly giving. Though I do not think a tithe is commanded in the New Testament, this is perhaps a good target for each of us as Christians.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7562.1 "Kip Letter - Highlights?"

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Wednesday, July 16, 2003

And along with the new Kip letter... some more NYC / Powell drama. Mid-Manhattan midweek service on July 22 should be verrrry interesting. If you're in the city, check it out (especially if you find the need to scream & yell).

Personally, I think these people who still believe the church can "change" for some reason should go watch Gandhi. Grow a backbone ... don't acknowledge their authority anymore! That is far more effective than "pleading for SP's resignation."


A CALL TO ARMS
On Tuesday July 22nd,at the Manhattan midweek service, Sam and the other elders and evangelists will finalize the splitting of Manhattan that was started by Sheridan Wright. He will discredit and disband the transition teams and the congregation will be forced to choose 'in or out'. We want to keep our region together and continue fighting for repentance in our church. We are pleading for all of the Christians in the NY area to come and help us fight the tyranny and together call, plead, scream for Sam Powell's resignation. The location of the midweek service is 96th Street and Central Park West and the service will be Tuesday July 22nd at 7pm.

'Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!' Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7551.1 "SAM POWELL SPLITS MANHATTAN"

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Monday, July 07, 2003

NYC Splitting continues...

NYC: Divisiveness escalating
Sheridan Splitting Manhattan
NYC Isolate; Leaders Step Down

Don't read this!!


ICC Says: "DON'T READ THIS!!!"

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Monday, June 30, 2003

This is a letter about the (lack of) progress, the lies and divisiveness escalating in NYC.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I would like to inform you of what’s happening behind the scenes that only a select few have been informed of. Earlier in the week, I spoke with a former ministry leader who informed me that there was a plan in place to put Sheridan Wright to lead Manhattan. Tonight I had a conversation with Norman to confirm all of these plans.

Norman told me, he is stepping down from the Mid-Manhattan Worship Services transition group. Norman, Sam & Sheridan do not believe that our Region is moving in the right direction and that the transition groups are not working. They are planning to hold a midweek service on Wednesday nights at our space on 96th Street & CPW, led by Sheridan Wright. They believe that the church needs a strong leader to run things, basically we need Sheridan and Sam Powell to lead, not these focus groups we have established. Sheridan has stated clearly that Sam is his Elder, and he is not open to any plan that does not include the ICOC. (In other words financial autonomy is not an option) They disagree with the direction our congregation is heading. Anyone who doesn’t agree with them should not come to the worship services on wends day nights. Sheridan is already in the works to find an apartment; he asked me last night to help him look for a two-bedroom apartment in Manhattan. He is already pulling couples out of our region to join them….(i.e. Tom & Pam Gurrentz, Norman & Jeni Vosshulta). So we would be on our own on Tuesday nights…….. I’m presuming we will lose our space.

What bothers me is t hat all of this was done secretly,without any input from the mid-Manhattan Congregation. All the while Norman is pleading with us to be patient with the Church office and give them more time, for us to be united and work together. Meanwhile, plans are in motion to leave us high and dry, completely abandoning the faithful who have persevered and stayed in our Region to serve.

Our leaders promised that things were supposed to be different, that no longer would leadership outside of our local congregation make decisions for what’s best for us…that things will no longer be done in secret ……I really question how much has changed in the last 4 months… (Maybe we need to read Henry Kriete’s Letter again)

Its strange that the Church leadership didn’t have the time to answer our specific questions regarding our finances….but found the time to plan out Sheridan’s move from NJ to NYC…They say we don’t have a worship space on Sundays b/c we don’t have the money for it….but we have the money to negotiate an additional space on wends day nights, and yet we have the money to hire Sheridan (What kind of salary are we offering him??)….all the while we struggle without having a Sunday Space to worship in….We still have no answers to our questions regarding church finances…..and now our loyalty and patience is repaid with a slap in the face!!!!!!…..It seems like they are saying “Thanks Mid- Manhattan, for all the money, time and sacrifice you’ve given us over the years…….but if you don’t like what Sam, Norman & Sheridan believe go find your own worship space….Good luck” (Sounds familiar?????? ---- take a look at the transcript of the Rockland Sermon Sam Preached a few weeks ago…I’ll give you a re-cap..squash transition groups…reinforce the power and authority of the evangelist and elders….and if you don’t like it too bad….you are shown the door…good luck and we’ll pray for you)

Our elders and ministry staff are being completely divisive…we should remain unified as a region and continue to work our Salvation with fear and trembling and not take any action that would cause divisions.

I write this to encourage us to stand up and express our thoughts…this is Jesus’ church, His body…not Sam’s, not Sheridan’s or Norman’s….we need to stand up to them and not allow them to force us out…….we need to stand up and not allow anything to happen that would destroy our Region….lets protect our church’s unity….and not let it be torn apart by anyone. Brothers, sisters, I plead with you to let your thoughts be known….don’t let any man tell you where and when you should worship, we follow Jesus he is our leader…..

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter.

[ name deleted - initials JB ]

http://forums.delphiforums.com/nycoc/messages?msg=122.1 "DIVISIVENESS ESCALATING - New Letter"

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Wednesday, June 18, 2003

The minutes of the June 1, 2003 meeting of the Rockland County (New York Church of Christ) Transition Team is now available.

Also, Groundhogfly in ICC DF has started a thread about initiating a class action lawsuit against the ICC. Contact him at groundhogfly@hotmail.com or enter the discussion at the link.


For years the ICC has been collecting our money for "missions" contributions, and even coercing us to give. Yet a great deal of those monies have NOT been spent on missions.

Further, the church that earlier bragged that the books are open to members at all times has now taken away that right.

I am proposing a class action lawsuit to the following effects:

1. Show us the money. A full accounting of the books from every church, every world sector, KNN, HOPE, DPI, etc.

2. All that money you collected for "missions", but didn't spend on missions, I'd like to have that back, thank you very much.

Nobody would get rich off such a suit, but that's not the point. With the awards, we could:

A. Pay some of the debts we accrued while we were foolishly making the "OTC" our financial priority. Or,

B. Practice, for a change, the Christian principle of helping the poor. Or,

C. Or support real evangelists who actually teach the real gospel, without any of the trappings of institutional "church" to oppress those to whom they preach.

And such an action would get the attention of District Attorneys everywhere, as it would uncover a great deal of fraud and embezzlement. It would also break the bank of ICC, and expose the thugs who run it, so that their minions could have another chance to see straight (though the Bible affords such an opportunity as it is.)

(For those of you who are thinking it's ungodly for a Christian to sue another Christian, I agree with you. And if I held that the ICC organization was from God, I wouldn't be espousing such an action. If they were from God, we'd have seen the books already.)

Anyone else interested in joining such an action?

It has been brought to my attention that some may not wish to discuss this on the forum. Any who are interested can contact me privately at groundhogfly@hotmail.com.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7038.1 "GROUNDHOGFLY / Class Action Lawsuit"

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Monday, June 16, 2003

A transcript of Sam Powell, et al's words at the Rockland County service where they said "No Transition Teams" is available.

The mute San Francisco church has issued a letter on their view of the status quo. What else does Kip have up his sleeve? Only time will tell.

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Monday, June 09, 2003

EXTRA EXTRA NYC!
Sam Powell told the church (basically), "NO MORE TRANSITION TEAMS."


So my friend just got out of the Rockland service and said Sam Powell has struck again! He came up to speak to the congregation there. (Many of whom don't know him at all. He does have a nasty habit of doing that.) Anyway, they announced they were doing away with the transition teams because they are unbiblical. They have basically told the congregation to shut up by saying, "don't bring us anymore issues". They have said, "if you don't like it leave". Steve Kinnard backed him up by saying, "we can go back to being 18 people as a church". Well, my friend took notes so more later. And that was his last service. Wow! It's scary to be back on the forum for so long with such news. I guess we're out then. I stopped after I read Ezekiel 34 amongst other things. I attend house church services and am checking out this new service that has split off from the norm on 69 Street.
I mean you rent a building and meet there. How hard can it be?

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6842.41 "Rockland-Sam Powell's "In or Out" Talk"

A DISGUSTED RESPONSE to Sam Powell and his tactics with the NYC Church.

1 "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD. 2 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: "Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done," declares the LORD. 3 "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD. Jeremiah 23

I sincerely have been hoping that after all these apologies there would be some serious changes in our churches but after what has happened in the Bronx and Rockland recently I sincerely lost almost all of my hope. I have been a disciple since 1988. I have been praying and asking God what he or Jesus would do if he were in my situation. What would Jesus really do? How would he look at all of these? Here are some of the scriptures came to my mind.

Matthew 27: 41
Here it is Jesus on the cross dying and who do we see beneath the cross, chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders. We all know that these men have brought Jesus to the cross. We speculate their reasons. They felt that their position and authority were threatened because Jesus was going around challenging them Perhaps these people sincerely felt like they had to protect Moses’ law and they were ready to sacrifice Jesus for the greater good of the people. .

Leviticus 16:32
The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments

Ezra 7:12
Ezra was a teacher of the Law.

Numbers 11:16
The LORD said to Moses: "Bring me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the Tent of Meeting, that they may stand there with you.

All three offices were in the bible and from God yet these men holding these titles were very wrong, abused their offices, they were crucifying God’s son in their blindness and in total opposition to God. They even thought that Jesus was from Satan John 7: 20 and that he was undermining their unity.

You will ask me, then follow the bible and just do Matthew 18, go and talk to them. I am convinced that we are past beyond this because countless people have pointed out these things to these ”leaders”. I personally talked to S. J. & S. K. face to face. You heard apologies yet they are still singing the same old tune. They are ready to close their ears. Now, it is time to take it to the church. Yet, they have the pulpit and you and I do not.

Aren’t these the three groups along with the Pharisees that Jesus had his biggest issues? Is it by accident that God wanted us to have so many scriptures referring to these groups?

Let’s look at them. They were pretty righteous people. At least they were more righteous than the average. They prayed, they read their bibles, they helped the poor, they converted people and they even were generous with their income. They indeed lived more righteous life styles than average. So when they thought of others as “sinners” they were right. At least they were trying. They sacrificed animals for the forgiveness of their sins and they probably felt pretty secure before God. If you followed their teachings much good could have come out it because they tried to obey the bible. But we know that something went wrong. Now, we suppose to learn from their mistake and not to repeat their wrongs?

I bring this up because these ”leaders” are taking credit for our righteousness that is solely due to God and his bible. Tell me honestly who comes to mind when you read these scriptures even today.

Luke 11
1) 39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
Jesus confronted these men again and again, Luke 16:14. Aren’t most of disciples’ issues today about how lavishly our “leaders” and “elder” have been living? And how to this day we do not know how much they make? My bible teaches me why men hide and conceal things. John 3:20
2) 42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

That’s why they do not care if you leave.

3) 43"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.

This goes without a comment and I have witnessed this for 15 years.

4) 46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Not only we have to obey God but also have to obey man made traditions? That’s why most of us for years felt what we did was never good enough.

5) 48So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.

How many disciples have been asked to leave because they did not agree with this “leaders”?

6) 52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

On top of that, they are showing the door to those that already have entered it.

Look, I am not advocating gossip for I know bible teaches it to be a sin. But if “leaders” hold the truth away from the people, the disciples will seek it out. Isn’t what we are, truth seekers, is it why we became disciples so we can know the truth. Not the half-truth but the whole truth. I do not call this gossip. Here is another scripture on this issue.

Luke 12
1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

And is this precisely what is going on in our church today? I do not know what these “leaders” intentions are these days. May be, they are sincerely trying to do what they think is right. May be, they are afraid to loose their authority and their income and that’s all they care.

Nothing new is happening here. The high priest; the teachers of the law and the elders were ready to sacrifice Jesus in order to keep a tab on this. It is happening now. These men are ready to sacrifice flocks of us. And by that they think this will go away. So they thought for Jesus.

When did we become the enemy? Up to recently, while we were giving our thousands of dollars, they had no problems with us. Now, we became an evil to be purged because we can think? Look around, most people that have issues are not the young ones but the older Christians who have been following Jesus for a long time, have been around and see the injustice. They know their bibles and know that these “leaders” are wrong. And these leaders have admitted publicly that they have been wrong, very wrong. These disciples are the faithful who have stuck while others left. Now they are shown the door. Why, because they are teaching circumcision, other ways to be saved? No, because they do not want to support these “leaders” financially nor they do not want to be lorded over by Sam, Steve K., Steve J., mere men. How unloving !!!

If I am wrong, please show it to me. If I am right, these teachings will be here in Manhattan and other parts of the church faster than you think. What is my fear?

Jeremiah 5:
30 "A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: 31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way.
But what will you do in the end?

Well, we will become the “Church of Sam Powell”. I will end my letter with this a question that I have been asking myself for years and recently? What would Jesus do if he were in my situation? What would he really do?

Nerses Tavit
Manhattan
June11, 2003

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Wednesday, May 14, 2003

On April 28, Marty Wooten posted an article on tithing. Interesting in light of Sam Powell and others' "Tithe, or you're out" divide and conquer strategies of late. In case you're wondering, MW is against ICC-style 10% forced tithing.
Warning: Marty's a bit academic. It's a good article though. You'll see the article at the bottom of this page under April 28th. Also, check out the thread on ICC DF and you'll see some interesting responses.

Also, FYI, an update (as of 4/28/03) to those of you writing complaints to the New York State Attorney General's office (Eliot Spitzer). This is from the NYCOC/ICC Discussion Forum, which focuses on NYC church issues. Or tries to. If you're from NYC -- or not -- why don't you start a post or two... don't be shy.


To All,
I met with Todd Holt today of the State Attorney General Office. He has received a stack of the complaint forms. As of now, no official investigation is in the works. Currently, the SAG is reviewing and assessing all the documents submitted. Afterwards, they will make a determination if a thorough investigation is warrant. If an investigation is launched, they will not be able to reveal anything to the public until the investigation is closed with their office (this means that no information will be given via phone, letters, etc.). Once the investigation is closed, then all their findings will become public records for ANYONE to view.

Note: Mr. Holt needs documents of the financial spending for ACES and NYCCoC for the last year or so. Also, if anyone has any documents that actually records purchase of properties, and non-charitable spending, please submit it to him. This could be done anonymously.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/nycoc/messages?msg=26.12 "Letters to NYS Attorney General"

Info for writing NY State Attorney General is repeated below.

If you want information on ACES or the NYCoC and they are not willing to share it, the State Attorney General wants to hear from you. You can fill out a form and fax it to them. Everything will be confidential. I was told by an aide at SAG that some members have contacted the office, but unfortunately have not filled out the necessary form. There are not enough people coming forward and filling out the form. Calling them is NOT enough.

You can fill out a Complaint/Inquiry Form or The Freedom of Information Law Request Form. Both of these forms are located at the web address below.

Forms are at http://www.oag.state.ny.us/charities/char030.pdf
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/charities/char007.pdf
Web site http://www.oag.state.ny.us/charities/charities.html

Filling out these forms does not mean someone will get into trouble. It will give you answers to unanswered questions.

New York State Office of the Attorney General
Eliot Spitzer
Charities Bureau
120 Broadway, 3rd floor
New York, NY 10271
212-416-8400 (phone)
212-416-8393 (fax)

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