Thursday, December 13, 2007

Tom Beam Leaves $11 Million Endowment for ICOC Missions

$11 Million to spread the love!

Tom Beam was, apparently, a seat belt manufacturer. He attributed his company's success to "Christian values and its employees."

I can only take comfort in the fact that somewhere out there, Kip is weeping.

Sigh / Vomit.

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Sunday, May 21, 2006

The rich "relatives" paying Mckean kids' Harvard tuition

Posted by WildJen. The Stanbeck book description and review can be seen here.

As per another thread......here is a footnote from Foster Stanback's book INTO ALL NATIONS discussing who the "rich relatives" were......

Page 119 - footnote 21:

"The bill for the children's Ivy-League grooming ran into tens of thousands of dollars, which McKean solicited from wealthy members of the church. Although various individuals provided such support, some began to feel a considerable degree of cognitive dissonance at the idea of aiding McKean's children without giving equal consideration to other worthy candidates. In such cases McKean did not hesitate to challenge them to develop the conviction that helping his family was part of their God-given role. When his youngest son began struggling spiritually at his private school where he had no Christian friends, McKean solicited funds from a wealthy family to pay for a scholarship ($10,000 of a total of $16,000 tuition bill) so that another Christian teenager could attend the school as well. They boy's parents were asked to move an hour north to an affluent neighborhood in W. Los Angeles close to the school. The church hired the boy's mother as a ministry "intern" to help the family afford the increased living expenses. McKean regularly approached his wealthy patrons in the church for donations of thousands of dollars to cover tennis-related expenses, such as lessons, equipment, tournament fees, and travel costs. The children's Harvard tuition was pad for by a dot-com entrepreneur who struck it rich during the internet boom of the late 1990s."

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005

Special Missions a Scam: Straight from the Horse's mouth

From WildJen on ICCDF.

Here it is, folks, straight from the horse's mouth. Andy Fleming, current administrator of Middle East World Sector, and member of the board of other ICOC corporations, admits that SMC funds in the past were considered "unrestricted" funds (although they were advertised as being for the specific purpose of missions). Fleming says that as much as 50% was funneled off to meet LOCAL administrative overhead in US Churches.

"The Middle East World Sector has provided financial information from 1995 forward and subsequently Andy Fleming, who currently oversees those funds, came and met with the Board to respond to our questions. In the course of reviewing this financial information and meeting with Andy we learned that between 1995 and 2002 monies sent to the Middle East World Sector were "Unrestricted" and only 50-55% was actually directly supporting foreign missions. In a letter from Andy to the San Diego Church of Christ dated October 29, 2005 he explains how the funds were used."

More analysis to follow. See his admission letter, along with documentation here.

http://www.icocinvestigation.com/mews.htm

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Tuesday, November 01, 2005

Pelham case - amended

The motion to dismiss was withdrawn! Check out the details. Posted by WildJen on ICCDF.

The Pelhams' have amended their original complaint.

Also posted are documents that were to be considered in the hearing that was scheduled for Friday.

The hearing scheduled for Friday has been cancelled because the defendants have withdrawn their motion to dismiss.

http://www.icocinvestigation.com/nashville.htm

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Friday, September 30, 2005

Response to Pelham Case

See the discussion here.

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Wednesday, July 20, 2005

The Tenneseean Article on Anti-ICOC Lawsuit

Here is a link to the actual article and ICCDF discussion thread:

The Nashville Church forces members to donate, suit says

The thread on ICCDF, "Lawsuit filed in Nashville"

And for all my ICOC member fans, courtesy of Sincamper:

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Tuesday, July 19, 2005

ICOC Investigation

It's been a long while since I've posted, but there have been a few promising developments.

There is talk on the ICC DF about Jack and Kay Pelham's lawsuit against the Nashville church. I mentioned Jack Pelham's efforts to put together a lawsuit on October 11, 2004. (Good luck Jack! You'll need it.) I strongly recommend checking out the ICOC Investigation site for details. Great info there!

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004

Article by Richard Lloyd Measures

Posted by WildJen on ICCDF.

I just ran across this interesting article.....Has anybody else read this article or know who Richard Lloyd Measures is?

http://www.somis.org/HH.html

Several interesting topics include:

*
"...In 1985, Chuck Lucas was dismissed from the Crossroads Church of Christ after a number of young men in the discipling movement admitted that they had been having sex with him."
*
"...After McKean became minister, roughly half of the old congregation walked out. However, due to McKean's charisma, infectious zeal, oratory skill, Elena, Lucas' plan, and intense recruitment by McKean's dedicated followers, the congregation grew phenomenally. "

Sound familiar?
*
"...Bauer left the movement after he discovered that McKean had revised the history of the movement and diverted $3.1 million in 'special contribution' funds into a numbered bank account in a foreign country."

Here is the section of the article that pertains to the ICOC...

>>>....In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Chuck Lucas, a young, charismatic preacher, formulated the plan for a new discipling movement. The plan was based on the principles laid down by Nee and Coleman. Some elements were similar to techniques used by the Church of Scientology™, multi-level marketing scams, Jehovah's Witnesses, the National Socialist German Workers' Party, the Moonies, and Est. Elements of Lucas' plan were:

* True salvation can only be obtained through the discipling movement -- i.e., everyone who is not in the discipling movement is going to spend eternity burning in the fires of Hell..
* Intense one-on-one discipler/disciple relationships, sleep deprivation, sugar/stick, and food deprivation -- i.e., proven mind-control techniques.
* Strict and absolutely unquestioning adherence to Lucas' interpretation of selected passages in the New International Version (NIV) translation of the Bible.
* Remarkably warm reception for prospective members.
* Sleep-deprivation.
* Use of "love bombing" -- a technique perfected by the "Moonies"-- the Unification Church of Reverend Moon.
* Alienation of the family.
* Replacement of the family with a new family -- the discipling movement.
* Replacement of longtime friends with warm new, 'instant' friends.
* Recurrent use of the threat of Hell to keep members in line. Members are frequently warned that leaving the discipling movement is the same as leaving God.
* Disciples encouraged to mimic the speech and mannerisms of their superiors.
* Promotion of the concept that the discipling movement has been entrusted by God with saving the world in this generation.

Social control maintained by:

* Censorship and self-censorship;
* Loaded language -- the sect develops its own lexicon of buzz words;
* Proscription of outside information and other sources of thought-stimulation;
* A repressive shunning/disfellowshipping policy;
* Periodic tell-all sessions with disciplers, coupled with meticulous record keeping of tell-all sessions -- the so-called 'sin list' which, according to an ex-member of the church hierarchy (Richard Bauer) is kept in a central computer;
* Frequent rebuking to keep members off-balance;

Briefly, this is how it all works: Prospective members are bowled over by the intense aura of love and enthusiasm presented by the group. However, prospective members are not aware that the sect conducts acting classes. I have seen such people in action and some of them are extremely good at what they do. New members are kept so busy that they have essentially no time for old friends and family. Old friends are slowly displaced by the new instant-friends in the sect. Eventually, all of one's 'friends' belong to the sect. From this point on, leaving the sect becomes extremely difficult. . . The hook is set.

In the beginning, Lucas' discipling movement was affiliated with the mainline Churches of Christ. In 1967, Chuck Lucas joined the 14th Street Church of Christ in Gainesville, Florida. Lucas succeeding in making discipling part of church policy. Thanks to Lucas and his plan, the church experienced a phenomenal growth rate that attracted widespread attention. When the 14th Street Church of Christ built a new building, the name was changed to Crossroads Church of Christ. The discipling movement came to be known as the Crossroads Movement and Crossroadsism. Lucas sent teams to spread discipling movement techniques to other mainline Church of Christ congregations. It was during this phase that Lucas recruited Thomas 'Kip' McKean from the University of Florida at Gainesville. Lucas baptised McKean in 1972. Lucas was McKean's discipler.

McKean is a gifted, charismatic orator and the son of a U. S. Navy admiral. McKean attempted to take over congregations in other cities. McKean's agenda was somewhat less than well received. In a letter from one congregation, the following appears:

"... Brother McKean has brought unbiblical practices, peculiar language, and subtle, deceitful doctrines to Charleston from the Crossroads Church at Gainesville, Florida."

In 1979, at the age of 25, McKean was invited to become the minister of the mainline Church of Christ congregation in Lexington, Massachusetts. The congregation was in decline. Kip, his wife Elena, and his followers joined the Lexington congregation. 'Christianity' would never be the same. After McKean became minister, roughly half of the old congregation walked out. However, due to McKean's charisma, infectious zeal, oratory skill, Elena, Lucas' plan, and intense recruitment by McKean's dedicated followers, the congregation grew phenomenally. The congregation outgrew its quarters and started meeting in nearby Boston. The name of the congregation was changed to Boston Church of Christ [BCC]. Thanks to McKean, the network of discipling churches that Lucas started went international. Examples are the Tokyo Church of Christ, London Church of Christ, Toronto Church of Christ, et cetera.

In 1985, Chuck Lucas was dismissed from the Crossroads Church of Christ after a number of young men in the discipling movement admitted that they had been having sex with him. Lucas moved to Thomasville, Georgia and began preaching at another church. With Lucas out of the way, Kip McKean took firm control of the discipling movement. He began a purge to entrench his control. The key people in the movement that Lucas had discipled were steadily replaced with people McKean had discipled. However, Chuck Lucas mysteriously remained on the BCC payroll for years -- even though he was no longer connected with the discipling movement.

Perhaps the most curious things about McKean's takeover was baptism nullification. Sins which had previously been absolutely washed away by baptism, were now outstanding. This meant those who had been assured they were Heaven-bound were instead headed on a one-way trip to the eternal fires of Hell. Thus, those who had been baptized in the Lucas-era had to be rebaptized in the McKean-era. If you guessed that McKean was an exception, congratulations. The Crossroads Movement was now the Boston Movement.

Mainline Churches of Christ are autonomous. Each church is controlled by a council of elders. At Crossroads, Lucas was booted out by a vote of the church elders. In the Boston Movement, there is a council of elders -- but they do not vote independently. The only vote that counts is McKean's. There is no system of checks and balances. Due to disagreement with McKean's spin on interpretation of scriptures, the de facto non-voting status of elders in his church, and McKean's dependence on using established mind-control techniques, the mainline Churches of Christ began disassociating themselves from the discipling movement in 1987. On 19 June 1988, based on a decision by its elders, the Crossroads Church of Christ publicly distanced itself from the Boston Movement.

Just as Lucas recruited McKean, new members in the Boston Movement are typically recruited from college campuses. This is not a coincidence. The movement's shtik is designed to take advantage of the fact that college students are often recently separated from their families. This makes them vulnerable to the group's love bombing and instant friends ploys. Due to numerous complaints of harassment of students and use of deceptive practices, ICoC recruiters have been banned from a number of college campuses in the U.S. and in the United Kingdom. Newspapers and magazines picked up on this and articles began appearing which detailed the deceptions and high pressure tactics the Boston Movement uses. Subsequently, ABC's 20/20 produced a segment which used videotape evidence to prove that Al Baird, a member of the Boston Movement elite, was less than truthful about the practices of the organization. McKean counterattacked by labeling media reports as "persecution" and "spiritual pornography." New and old memberships in the BCC seemed to be declining.

McKean moved from Boston to Los Angeles, where he was virtually unknown by the local media. On 6 January 1992, Kip McKean informed all lead evangelists in the Boston Movement that he is now serving as the evangelist of the Los Angeles Church of Christ. In other words, the world headquarters for the movement is L.A. On 22 July 1993, Kip McKean informed his followers that the Boston Movement has a new name -- International Churches of Christ (ICoC). During the World Leadership Conference In Los Angeles (11-15 August 1993) -- essentially following in the footsteps of David Koresh and Rev. Jim Jones -- McKean declared himself to be "God's man" leading "God's movement."

Kip obviously owes much to his one time discipler, baptizer, and the founder of the present day discipling movement -- Chuck Lucas. In 1988, Kip's followers were being told about Lucas and Crossroads. However, by 1991, Kip's followers were being told that the discipling movement began in Boston. I asked a current member of the ICoC about Chuck Lucas. He had no idea who Chuck Lucas was -- although he was sure that the ICoC had told him the complete truth about the history of the discipling movement.

The Movement of Money

One of the reasons for the rapid growth of the discipling movement has been its ability to move impressive sums of money from the pockets of members to McKean's pocket. ICoC members are expected to donate a minimum of 10% of their weekly gross income in addition to "special contributions" for the allegedly poor/needy, plus other spurious contributions. For example, a member whose income is $500 per week must contribute $50 minimum per week to the discipling movement. There are at least two "special contributions" per year. The "special contribution" is based on an announced multiplier. If "God's man" decides that the multiplier is 20, and the weekly contribution is $50, then the special contribution would be $1000 for that week, plus the normal contribution of $50--for a total take of $1050. With this system, it is possible for the movement to take a high percentage of disciples' incomes. One college student, Donna Buckmeyer, said that she donated $4,000 to the movement -- money she needed to complete her education. {"I Got Caught Up In a Cult," Seventeen Magazine, Sept. 1995, page 178}

In the United States, it is difficult to find out what percentage of church contributions for the poor and needy are going to the poor and needy. However, in the United Kingdom, the Charities Commission keeps a watchful eye on organizations who ostensibly collect money for the poor and needy. According to a Charities Commission investigation, ICoC/London Church of Christ collections for the poor and needy delivered between 1% and 3% of the monies collected to the poor and needy. The rest went for 'administrative costs'.

Personality Change and Mind-Control

The discipling movement has been widely accused of practicing cultic mind-control. Kip McKean was so sure that his critics were wrong, he hired researcher and author, Flavil Yeakley, Jr. to scientifically investigate the matter. Yeakley did his job. He conducted standard personality tests on members of the Boston Movement. Yeakley discovered that approximately 95% of the members had changed personalities. When Yeakley informed Kip McKean of the statistical results, McKean reacted favorably -- assuming that changed personality was a good thing.

Yeakley's book, The Discipling Dilemma, details his findings about the discipling movement. Yeakley points out that personality change is widely recognized as a harbinger of serious psychological troubles. There is substantial evidence that persons who are mind-controlled exhibit changed personalities. A high rate of changed personality has been measured in members of: the Unification Church, Church of Scientology™, Jehovah's Witnesses, Children of God, and Aum Shin Rikyo (supreme truth)--the church that nerve-gassed the Tokyo subway in March of 1995, killing 12 and injuring thousands.

The existence of changed personality can also be detected by observation. According to Richard G. (Rick) Bauer, an ex-member of the discipling movement elite, many male members of the discipling movement ape (mimmick) the personality of Kip McKean. Bauer said that this somewhat humorous phenomenon only became clear to him after he left the movement. Bauer left the movement after he discovered that McKean had revised the history of the movement and diverted $3.1 million in 'special contribution' funds into a numbered bank account in a foreign country.

According to "God's man" and "prophet" Kip McKean, Mother Teresa and Joan of Arc are going to spend eternity burning in the fires of Hell.

One of the more unique things about the 'discipling movement' is that, from it's beginning, members who marry are required to disclose what took place in the honeymoon bed. A description of each coital position used, number of male orgasms, and number of female orgasms must be disclosed to "God's Leaders"

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Monday, October 11, 2004

Class action Lawsuit

There have been many people who've wanted to bring a lawsuit to the ICOC. Here is some helpful info.

Have you guys heard of or thought of doing a class action lawsuit for the emotional damage done by incompetent leaders?? I can think of several people in my city who might be interested in filing one against the leader here who has abused many people. If one lawsuit succeeded it could open the door for so many more. This could be the way to get these people to stop placing idiots in leadership. I find the lay leaders to be the most abusive.
When people are told to do things or their salvation/church membership could be affected that is very stressful(when it goes beyond scriptural authority) I was dropped from membership with no warning and slandered/marked. Do you think cases like these could win? maybe even get back previous missions contributions in the thousands, since finding funds were mis-appropriated?? I hear Russ Ewell lived in a mansion bought with church/my money.
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Answer from Jack Pelham:
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I've been working on this for well over a year now. I've contacted about 10 different large firms, each of whom rejected the case. From what I gather, they do not think there will be enough money found in the ICC to warrant their time. (Typically, a firm will make %30 or more of the awards from such a case.) I've also spoken to several attorneys who are NOT members of large firms, and all of whom tell me that such a case would take a very large firm to execute.

The way the ICC has organized itself is such that there's a huge mound of inconvenience standing in the way of seeing the books. From the moral perspective, it's a no-brainer; morality demands that they show the books. But the LAW is another matter. From a legal perspective, it would take a huge amount of effort to make them open the books---that is, as the result of a lawsuit.

Now, having said all that, if someone were rich and could simply hire a firm, that would be different. (Most suits like this are done on contingency, whereby the attorneys get paid from the cash awards they manage to win.) But still, such a case could take several years.

In the mean time, however, there are more and more administrators who are leaving the ICC--more and more ministry staff, too---and so many of these saw and heard and did things about which their consciences are bothering them. It just figures that they'll start talking in the course of time, as they continue to figure out just how evil the system was. So these big time leaders can't hide forever. They're going to get bitten by their own snakes. It's pretty much inevitable; they just don't have enough cash coming in to bribe all these people, and the you're-going-to-hell pressure they put on people has a way of disappearing once someone has been gone from the church for a few months---so what can they do to KEEP people from talking?

The better solution in the meantime is to report your local congregation to your state government. Chances are that they were fraudulently collecting money as "contribution for the poor" but spending it instead on HOPE. This is illegal, yet it was the game plan all along, and it will probably even pop up in writing at some point, as it was a matter of formal policy for the churches.

What's at stake legally is whether ICOC and HOPE really are two different entities. I believe that they are NOT, yet they are acting as if they are. So once they get in trouble for this HOPE fraud in a few states, the IRS will be much more willing to conduct a thorough audit on this issue. (Remember, we were told all along that HOPE is "separate" from the church, but even Kip called it a "separate arm OF the church", and appointed Bob Gempel as the "World Sector Leader" over HOPE. And HOPE helped itself to monies collected from the public at church meetings all the time. So they were definitely behaving as if they were the church itself.

Whether we are able to win any legal victories or not in this matter, it is very important to understand that God will avenge these sins. These people are twice dead. This will surely not escape the infinite righteousness of God's judment. Already, these people are going from bad to worse, and are suffering in their own lives as they are wasting away in depression, anger, bitterness, frustration and fear. And they continue to drive from them the kinds of people who are thinking people and who make the best friends. All they have left at this point are the "yes men" who would rather be praised by a "leader" than by God.

If you want to go after it, I'd suggest reporting them to your state authorities. And here's another idea. If you're still in the city where the church is, write them a letter asking to see all the books. When they deny your request, mount signs to your car saying, "The _________ Church of Christ Won't Open Its Books", and drive around with that for a year or so. (I live two hours away from the Nashville Church, or I'd have been doing this already.) If you do this, you'll be interviewed by the news people, and it'll cause a lot of attention--and it's completely TRUE. This means they couldn't win a lawsuit against you for doing it. And if they were stupid enough to try suing you over it, that means you get a chance to tell a judge and a jury and the press about what they are doing there in your town.

After spending 17 years helping to build it, I have been quite dedicated to UN-building the ICC. However, the further I get from it, the more I realize that it's just another in a sea of churches that are quite screwed up. The same dullness I find in ICC members is found in the members of so many different denominations that it's not funny. You try to get them to think through an issue, but they just don't seem to be able to do that kind of thinking. They basically figure that if it were that important, their leaders would tell them about it. That kind of thinking is not an ICC exclusive, unfortunately.

The ICC is storing up wrath for itself. It will not surprise me at any point to hear of terrible things being uncovered, of arrests being made, of 501(c)(3) status being revoked, etc.---or even of suicides by washed-up leaders and their lieutenants. Nor will it surprise me if God lets them keeping playing their game for another 100 years. Neither would mean that God is unjust---but both would prove that the ICC is unjust.

There is not one possible explanation for hiding their books that makes them seem righteous. In fact, the best stab they can take at it is that it would "make people struggle" if they saw the books. But that has been quite effective since ICC members are quite willing to obey the boundaries set for them in their thinking. If they are TOLD they will "struggle", then they assume it must be so--and they never once question why a church should be doing things to make Christians "struggle" in the first place.

Pity the poor "disciple". And contrast that with true Christianity, in which each person would know God for himself. (Jeremiah 31:31-35, John 17:3, Matthew 7:21ff.) The ICC is just another example of a group of people trying to be mediators between their underlings and God. And why would anybody want such a role when God specifically said the church wouldn't be this way? For pride and for money. Pride and money are the gods of the ICC. Jesus they do not know. How COULD they know him and keep secrets? It's a very simple proposition that people who know Jesus imitate Jesus and don't feel comfortable neglecting to imitate him.

Love God = Open the books.

Love God = Ask to see the books.

Stay ignorant = Don't know God

Keep hiding the books = Don't know God.

My son is 17 months old. He ALREADY knows when he's wandering out in the (fenceless) front yard, to keep an eye on Daddy to be sure it's OK to go where he's going. Why can a toddler who can't even talk yet know how to behave this way, when a church full of grown ups can't seem to figure out that it's supposed to be accountable to Jesus? They quit looking to Jesus for approval a LONG time ago--and many of them have never looked to him at all, but to the "church" instead.

Do what you can, but rest assured that God will deal with these people. Whether he helps you succeed or not, it won't change the score at the end of the game. There is no way the ICC will prevail in the Judgment. Its members will be sorely disappointed to have invested their lives in a lie, and to end up not having known God for themselves, even though they were "members" of the "best" church.

Oh, that they would listen. But even their leaders like urcrazy03 cannot seem to muster a response to a godly rebuke. They love their money more than they love the truth.

Jack

[ Jack's sig:
When I left the ICC 2 years ago, I wrote a book about how the church is sinning against scripture. http://www.reveal.org/library/stories/people/jpelham.html And I participated extensively on this forum for the purpose of discussing doctrinal issues.

At this point, however, though I remain a Christian, I am participating here for the discussion of the FINANCIAL issues, which I have been investigating in earnest for over a year. Please do not mistake my focus as being innately unspiritual; I simply am not here to discuss spiritual matters at length. Also, please do not assume that whatever sharp comments you read from me here are coming out of the blue; many of these discussions involve conversants who have had ongoing dialogs. What may seem like an inordinantly sharp response may indeed be quite justified as part of an ongoing adversarial dialog.

None of what I am doing here would be necessary if only the ICC churches would open their books for independent audits. There is simply too much evidence of wrongdoing to be satisfied with their own say-so that they haven't broken the law. ]

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Sunday, May 16, 2004

Open the Books

by SinCamper who's on ICC DF. Brilliant!


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Monday, February 09, 2004

Amusing 1988 Steve Johnson Quote: "I don’t want to own anything. I want all of my real estate to be invested in heaven."
Dave Anderson from RightCyber Up dug this up and posted this on the ICC DF.

In light of the pictures of Steve Johnson's home now posted on this Forum, I thought many of you would find this Steve Johnson quote quite interesting:

"If you walked by faith instead of financial security, that would be utterly shocking. It says we’re justified by our faith. See, I walk by faith in that area – I’m really blessed, I’ll just be candid with you guys – the church takes care of Lisa and me. We’re paid enough to live on, and we don’t go hungry. And so for us we’re constantly looking for ways to sacrifice so we can feel a little bit of pain. But the church is very, very kind. But I don’t know what it’s like to live by faith and not financial security. We don’t have a savings account. We don’t have CDs – either kind. I don’t think that’s wrong, to have a CD, but – I mean, all I’m saying is, I want the day I die not to own any property. I don’t want to own anything. I want all of my real estate to be invested in heaven. Now, I’m not saying it’s a sin if you own something – don’t get me wrong. But, what kind of safety nets are you holding out there? ‘If this doesn’t work, I’ve been smart. I didn’t give it all. Didn’t sell the ranch.’

"See, somebody falls away, ‘Boy, he bought the farm. You know, but shoot, he gave it all away. He fell – if he hadn’t given it all to the church, when he fell away, he’d have something now – boy, I’d won’t make that mistake.’ You say, ‘Well, I’d never say anything like that.’ I think a lot of you – you might not be planning your falling away retirement fund. But you’ve got it. I think it’d be shocking if you walked by faith, in your financial security."

Steve Johnson, Jesus Was Not a Nice Guy, New York City, audiotape, 1988.

A Software.com Yacht Party
Some interesting info from Gracie on ICC DF. Larry Salberg was a former Orthodox Jew who started doubting Jesus as an ICOC minister.

Just as a bit of interesting info: on the Software.com deal; the 'investors' had a party celebrating their earnings on a yacht with Steve Johnson.

I saw the pictures; the only ones there were those who had invested. Larry and Jennifer Salberg were among them.

peace,
Gracie

Boring, whiny Kip Article
My God Kip, shut up already.

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Saturday, February 07, 2004

An Insider's Open Letter to Steve Johnson - Ken Carlstedt
Read on. From ICC DF. Ken Carlstedt and his wife Jeri assisted the Johnsons for many years in the NYC church, and have seen more of the Johnsons' lifestyle than most people. Thus his words hold much weight not just in terms of its moral indignation but his personal knowledge of SJ's life.

Also referenced are SJ's deceitful comments about himself as a "poor preacher," not only to the church but also to a City Beat reporter. Full text article is included.

After two decades of amassing a fortune while leading the New York Church of Christ, Steve Johnson is technically now a millionaire-- since the equity on his house alone is just shy of a million.

With the on-line heat coming down hard on Steve, he's about to hurriedly skip town with his loot to lead and direct the finances of an unsuspecting church in Savannah, Georgia.

In this atmosphere, insider Ken Carlstedt posted a powerful letter on one of the many threads discussing Steve's shady dealings and luxurious lifestyle.

The thread is called

Steve Johnson: 'My house is kinda junky.'

Ken Carlstedt was responding to an old newspaper article I dug out and posted. In this article, Steve Johnson slickly and deceptively claimed to be living a modest lifestyle, with no misappropriation of funds, etc.

Ken's letter was/is so powerful and credible in the way it calls Steve on his b.s.---i.e. the letter's damaging truth comes from a high-up insider/confidante of Steve Johnson's, not an oustide observer like myself.

As such, Ken's letter deserves a thread of its own. Here goes:

-------------------AN OPEN LETTER FROM KEN CARLSTEDT----------------
---------------------------TO STEVE JOHNSON-----------------------

Dear Steve J.,

This message is directly to you, not really a response to the poster.

Steve, do you understand the deception you practiced? If so, you have never confessed openly, so I will help you see it, again.

Let's keep it simple. 'When the impression you work hard to give is intended to cover up reality, that is called deception.'

Steve, you remember that you intentionally planted too many trees and shrubs in front of your house, and let things get overgrown, even with Buzz around who is an excellent gardener and had indeed done miraculous gardening at his house.

You did this specifically to make it look like a normal little house, or even a bit quirky and less than normal, that certainly wouldn't look like anything 'special' or 'lavish' from the front. You worked hard to create that impression.

You will remember that one of the things that pleased you about that particular house, back when we all moved to Rockland together in the early and mid-1990's, was that it had an appearance from the front as a modest little house. You and Lisa were glad to find a house that 'looked small from the street' because you believed this would help shield you and your family from the questions that were coming up about the apartment on 98th street, the lavish decorations provided for you mostly free of charge from you know who, the 'intricate' but probably fully legal (since minor shadings of the truth are rarely prosecutable) ways that you and he financed it, etc.

'You dreaded those questions then as you are dreading the questions in the past year. Don't you see the pattern here? What does it mean when someone gets defensive? Remind yourself of your own teachings, and heal thyself.

Steve, you do remember that in close proximity to the time you were on the phone giving the interview referenced in this thread, there were stoneworkers, construction people, cement pourers, fireplace experts, and other kinds of work being done, on the back of the house, out of site from the street. Or, at least, you were well into the planning stages of how to put your investment gains into your house.

You need to be in touch with reality enough to remember that these home improvements cost you in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do we need to name names, and quote prices paid, to help you remember?

Steve, why are you willing to give the impression of running and hiding out? Could it be that you ARE running and hiding out again, without admitting this even to yourself?

Steve, please come forward openly and publicly, as you committed personally to me that you would do, about one year ago almost to this day, in my basement, about everything.

At the very least, if you can't bring yourself to come clean about everything, then come clean about these specific issues. Open up publicly about the improvements you made to your home and the money you used to make them. Give all the details, don't hold anything back. You see, when you are a public leader accepting public money as pay (church members are the public in this case), then the public does indeed have a right to know your finances, especially given the clear impression of impropriety.

Do you understand there is a clear impression of impropriety here? You need to, if you don't. It doesn't matter that some of your best friends are telling you to not worry about it. You need to ignore them and do the right thing.

More than that: 'When the impression you are working hard to give is intended to cover up reality, that is called deception.'

You will likely loose your soul if you continue refusing to come clean. Whatever you do or don't do, I will pray that God will be merciful to you, but my hope for you is not strong if you persist. You know the right thing to do and have refused to do it, wreaking havoc around you, exactly and precisely as we discussed a year ago.

Steve, I am not persecuting you. You are simply in need of coming clean. You and I both know it, and so many others who know you well know it. Telling you that truth is the best thing I can do for you.

Summarize it for yourself, it may be easier to see that way. Say it to yourself: 'I was a minister in a rapidly growing, dynamic, financially-surging organization. Lots and lots of perks came my way because of my position in the organization and because of the way I was discipled, and chose to follow, to handle people around me in that position.'

Steve, just come clean about all this, it's so simple. Perhaps most people could still forgive you, although I can speak for no one but myself.

Lots of love,

Ken

________________________________________________________________

Here's a link to Ken's letter in the context of the thread:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages/?msg=10358.3

Here's a link to the initial post Ken was responding to:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages/?msg=10358.1

Finally, here's a transcript of that initial post:

________________________________________________________________

STEVE JOHNSON: My house is kind of junky.

... or so he put it to a reporter in 2000 while defending his ownership of the house currently being discussed on the forum———the fireplace in-the-bathroom digs now featured in photos being viewed on the forum.

It's from an article I dug out of the TOLC files.

In the same article, Steve Johnson also plays the role of the poor preacher with other comments:

1) Regarding his unimpressive cars———one that he's forced to share with his father-in-law; regarding other car, Steve sheepishly describes it this way:

It will go fast... when it's running.

2) Regarding the home itself: he bought it for only $123,000, and that was with help from my father-in-law;

3) Regarding his salary, he refuses to discuss it. Instead he ducks the question with the glib comeback, If I ever get rich, it won't be because of the church. It'll be because I won the lottery.

4) Regarding the uncomfortable questions being put to him over the phone, Steve jokingly compares himself to Jesus and the reporter to one of Jesus' crucifiers. Steve tell the reporter to hold on to the phone\ while he gets the reporter some more nails to crucify me with.
________________________________________________________________

TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN WORDS COMING BACK TO HAUNT YOU!!!

It's a classic

Here's the link:

http://www.tolc.org/nybeat.htm

Here's an excerpt:

CITY BEAT Reporter: (Steve Johnson) will get serious when talk turns to faith, or to allegations that he and other leaders in the church——— where weekly tithing is required———lead lavish lifestyles.

For several years, Johnson lived in a three-bedroom, 2,200-square foot condo on W. 98th St. that today would probably fetch more than $1 million. But Johnson said he never owned the apartment and moved out several years ago after the owner, a friend, 'went belly up in the real estate market and had to sell.'

Johnson bought a four-bedroom house in West Nyack, Rockland County, for a reported $123,000 with help from his father-in-law, he said. 'It's kind of junky,' said Johnson, an assertion not disproved by photographs. (Those are photos OF THE OUTSIDE, during the FALL OF 2000... DUDE)

Last week, workers could be seen repairing water damage to the two-story home. Outside were parked the three cars registered to Johnson: 1997 Ford Expedition, a 1975 pickup truck that Johnson said he shares with his father-in-law, and a 1989 Ford Mustang that Johnson said 'will go fast, when it's running.'

When asked, Johnson refused to detail his salary. But he did give this assurance: 'If I ever get rich, it won't be because of the church. It'll be because I won the lottery.'

RELEVANT HISTORICAL LINKS:
Leadership Lifestyles

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Tuesday, February 03, 2004

The Famous Fireplace in Steve Johnson's Bathroom
Paid for by us who were suckers in the NYCOC. Paid for by the BENEVOLENCE funds. Click "more pictures" to see YOUR fireplace in the NYC lead evangelist's bathroom. It's selling for almost One Million, by the way... I'd like to get my damn tithe back!!

Steve Johnson's home

Steve Johnson's fireplace in the bathroom

Remember how people packed themselves into nasty small apartments with 10 roommates? So we could pay tithe? THIS is what we paid for. Remember single moms? This is where the money went that they DIDN'T receive.

It is truly Disgusting.

Nothing angers me more than this kind of greed and hypocrisy. EVERYONE should see these pictures.

Apparently SJ put a bunch of money from some shady thing at Software.com (one of the Boston ICOC Board of Directors was a Software.com VP) to pay for renovations for the place. Check out the NYCOC and ICC DF threads on the Software.com issue and the SJ House:

NYCOC: Steve Johnson's home on sale for $1M!

NYCOC: Steve Johnson House -- photos

ICC DF: Is this REALLY Steve Johnson's house?

ICC DF: PHOTOS OF STEVE JOHNSON'S HOUSE

Interesting ICOC Stats site
I added a new link for a web site called Icocstats.org. It's written by a "faithful" ICC member, and interestingly enough leaves out the 2003 stats. Does anyone have numbers for any church in 2003?

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Monday, January 26, 2004

NYCOC Financials: More Evidence of Their Greed.

Out for all to see. Look at the numbers carefully - D&T declares the financial statements present the full picture fairly.

Note the Benevolence numbers:
Revenues for Benevolence, page 3: $661,485
Expenses for Benevolence, page 9: $ 92,540


That's $568,945 that went into their pockets. That could have gone to single moms, people in genuine need. Not to mention the many who were literally starving to pay tithe.

From icocnews.com:



The New York City Church of Christ 2002 Audited Financial Statements are now available. The audit was performed by Deloitte & Touche, and the statements can be viewed by clicking on the link provided.


ICC DF and NYCOC both have discussions on this topic.

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Monday, October 27, 2003

Henry Kriete in NYC
Kriete came to NYC to preach. He also did some Q&A sessions, which you can see posted on the NYCOC forum.


HK in NYCOC: Q&A session (first question posted below)

Post your response to HK Q&A session here.


Henry Kriete Q&A session in NYC

Here is the scoop on the question & answer session that Henry gave to a small meeting this weekend in Manhattan. These are the same questions he gave to the service on Sunday. At the smaller meeting, he answered these questions on the fly, and don't think he skipped any. I saw. I asked hard questions and he did answer them. He emphasized that he is not a spokesperson for the ICOC. He also said that since he is very conflicted, his answers could change. "I am in a major transition," he said.
Before these sessions, Henry did a sermon as well, and it was mainly all scriptures about Jesus. No recruiting or evangelization ICCisms.

I have the recordings of his answers, but for now I'll paraphrase his answers from my notes. I'm at work so this will consist of a few posts... I am closing this thread to responses. Please see the Response folder to post responses. Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------
Q: Is the ICOC a cult?
A: That is an emotionally loaded question for me. Is Heather here? (LOL) I don't want to be evasive, but - if you were a cult leader... LOL... you don't find the word cult in the Bible, but you do find "sect," "arrogance," etc. The ICOC is a Sect with cult-like tendencies. I would say that some of the ICOC leaders ARE cult leaders. Others are not.

Also, I was never given mandates, "You must preach this or that." But we cannot deny that we had a culture of control. Invasiveness. Bad theology. Abberational theology.

I do believe there's ONE body, one church. But NOT the "One True Church" ICOC-style. If you are a Christian, you are part of the body. You are united to the body.

But for the record: I am DONE with the ICOC, and have cut ALL affiliation with it. (Later he states that Vancouver church refused to sign an affiliation agreement with the ICOC.)

[additional notes:]
I'm here to support you. The stonewalling with the finances... What happened in NYC is a tragedy. I respect your decision to leave the church.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/nycoc/messages?msg=345.1 "Henry Kriete's Question & Answer Session"

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Friday, October 24, 2003

Will the Leaders Ever Understand How Cruel They Were?


You reap what you sow. A response to a former WML who wrote about returning to the secular world.

This is one of the most powerful posts I've read: about a leader who writes about her realizations, about returning to a normal working life and learning how "privileged," and Cruel, her life was as an ICOC minister. It was not the sacrifice that she believed it was.


I wonder how many of these leaders now, among those who are scrambling to keep their salaries and benefits, who are crushed with their own self pity over what has "happened," can ever come to a full understanding of the "sins," the injustice, the evil they had ultimately perpetrated.


I really believe these people live the grand delusion. I was talking with a friend who said that Summer McKean had a "nervous breakdown." Some members had accused her of racism (my friend said she believed Summer to be more elitist, than racist). Well, no wonder. The woman had been raised to believe this illusory, insane life was right, was good, was sacrificial. People who have never had a "pre-ICC" life, and fully embraced the church's system - how lost! A person who was cruel, who deserves all the enemies in the world. How dare she have any pity for herself. I sure would not want to be in her shoes. But how can you deny the injustice in her life as well?


It takes a person with incredibly strong character, backbone, and conscience - not in the ICC way but in the truest way - to resist this brainwashing and do what is right. Even more when you are raised in the church. Obviously Summer did not have this. I admire the fact that Olivia had the backbone to eventually leave, though I know it was difficult for her.


I have to say, so many people lose in this situation. The leaders who are still comfortable do not suffer now, but I am certain their reward for their cruelty - the wrath of "God" or whoever it is - is not finished, is coming to them, and I do not feel any pity for them.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6122.92 "Why Leaders Must Get Out"

The original post:

Letter from long-time annonymous former staff person:


As background in case you don't know me - I was baptized in XXX in
l9XX, moved to XXX on the mission team in XX, worked as a XXXX for XXX, then went into the ministry at XX years old. My husband and I married in XX, and we moved wherever we were asked (more times than I can count), and sold everything to move Overseas for XX years before returning to the U.S. and coming to back to U.S.


We resigned from the ministry after over many years. I felt so much pressure to produce numbers, look a certain way, dress a certain way, have a beautiful home, make the stage at church beautiful, have beautiful people singing on stage, etc. - in short, a lot of emphasis on all the wrong things, but I didn't realize it at the time.


Having been in the ministry for a long time, and now having worked in
secular jobs for over XX years, I feel I have a unique perspective. I had no idea while I was in the ministry how out of touch I was with what "real" or "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives were.


I don't think anyone who has been in the ministry for years, especially if they went into the ministry straight out of college and never worked, can really grasp this until you've experienced it. I cannot emphasize enough to not underestimate how difficult it is to change the way you have thought when you have been in the ministry for years & years.


I hadn't taught in the Sunday school program since l983, although I had counselled (and corrected and rebuked) people on their attitudes about teaching. I had no idea what it was like when Wednesday night classes ran late, and what it was like to try to pick up the pieces of 2 tired children on Thursday morning at 6:45 trying to get them to school.


After only my first week working at the Medical Center as a XX for 12 hour shifts, the realization hit me how demanding I had thought my schedule was when I was on staff - now every day was much more intense than that staff meeting Tuesday as I went to work, tried to cook dinner before I left in the morning, arranged childcare for my children, etc. I was used to always being right, always having my opinion be the right one, telling people what to do all day long, and thinking I always knew better.


After resigning, it was the best thing that ever happened to us to stay where we had led (not go somewhere else, and certainly not to go somewhere else and accept another ministry job! that certainly wouldn't fit the definition of resignation) and learn the MANY lessons that we needed to learn. It was humbling and difficult to be on the other side of the pulpit, but you get a different, and very valuable view from there.


It's hard to explain the mindset that occurs when you have been in the
ministry for a long time. I really thought that being in the ministry was the only thing worth doing, that only the "best" people could do it, and so I looked down on everyone else for not being "sharp" enough to be in the ministry.


I was used to always being right, making judgements about big, little and totally unimportant things and expecting the people around me to do things my way, always having people help me with my responsibilities in life, being able to delegate anything I didn't want to do, having babysitters always readily available, using people to get my goals accomplished and make me look good (although at the time I thought it was sincere and best for them), etc. The pride and arrogance were overwhelming.


It has taken years to understand that no one else in the church has this carte blanche lifestyle. (We could sure use some of those babysitters now!!)


Recently, a couple we are close to came to us asking for a short term loan to be able to buy their child glasses. The husband has a full time job and a masters degree and the wife works part time. It hit me this is how most of the middle class in the United States lives - one thing goes wrong (a broken transmission, needing new glasses, an unexpected medical bill) and you are unable to meet your financial obligations. When you're in the ministry, all of your needs are met: medical insurance (even co-pays), mileage allowances for travel, expense account allowances for housing and entertainment, and so you are shielded from this kind of financial pressure.


So we asked people to be sacrificial, when really we weren't experiencing any real kind of financial sacrifice ourselves, as all of our needs were always met.


Myself, as well as all of the "old-timers" who have been in the ministry for years, have built a crumbling mess. It has not been easy to "fix" me (especially my thinking) and even after 4 years out of the ministry, I'm still not "fixed" because I have been trained in elitism, arrogance, harshness, judgementalism, and pride.


I am extremely concerned about the rushing stampede to hire Sam Laing to come to Athens. It is obvious the many strengths that Sam and Geri have to offer - their marriage, family, counselling ability, etc. But, from my viewpoint after having been in the ministry for over 1/3 of my life, having had 32 years in the ministry is not a plus, but a serious minus.


I have nothing against Sam & Geri Laing, but I have seen the mindset, priviledges, lifestyle and thought process that a leader on his "level" or "tier" in the ICOC system has been steeped in. I also believe many of these mindsets will not even be obvious to Sam for a long time, because we have been thoroughly indoctrinated in that way of thinking.


I believe that Sam is sincere in wanting to repent and that the Triangle church in many ways wasn't as oppressive or controlling as some of the ICOC churches have been, yet it will take time, and many painful conversations, to learn a new way of thinking and dealing with people. Leaving a church after resigning to come somewhere else without staying and learning the lessons there is a red flag to me too. I don't even think it is possible to know what those lessons might even be except with the passing of time.


I haven't seen any evidence of repentance, or even openness, about finances or leaders lifestyles. And although it hasn't been said, I wonder if this rush to hire the Laings has a lot to do with when their severance package expires. I don't want the church to make any huge decisions rashly and without everyone feeling great about the decisions, especially because of money issues.


http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6122.1 "Why Leaders Must Get Out"

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Wednesday, September 10, 2003

ANY LAWSUITS VS THE ICC?

The question came up on the ICC DF:

If you have any info about pending lawsuits, respond here (at your discretion of course).

Also, a nice medical analogy about the church's spiritual condition, posted by Dr. David Dahm of the St. Louis church.

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Wednesday, July 09, 2003

Hilariously true thread... Share YOUR favorite leadership hypocrisy story!


I felt an urge to post a story related to me about the hypocricy of some ICC leaders. I thought about posting this in another folder, then I decided to start my own thread so folks can add/comment and also to make it easier for leaders who chronically lurk, reading here to more easily see the stupidity of their ways.
Here goes my story:

A friend told me that when she and her husband were on staff in a particular region of LA sometime ago, they went on a retreat of sorts to a beutiful hotel. Being low on the totem pole, they unpresumptuously checked-into a small, simple non smoking room on the ground floor. The wife almost cried when springs from the furniture poked her as she sat down. Informing the hotel staff, they were thrilled when the hotel manager apologized and led them to where "the other ICC guests were staying." This couple's jaws hit the floor when lo and behold leaders like Kip, Al, Johnathan Perkins, etc., were staying top floor suites, and were collectively enjoying their own little cocktail party, in their words, strolling from room to room fellowshipping one another.

I can also remember a time when I was waiting for our Region's administrator to finish making some notes in his journal at his appartment years ago. The Region leader called and I tried not to listen as this leader related how he had just had a meeting with Kip in Orange county, it was early afternoon, and he was too tired to drive the twenty miles home. He was therefore checking into a beach front hotel and would like the admin to fax some information to him as he wanted to relax and would return to the region tomorrow...

Sheesh... and they wonder why people won't tithe "no more?"

Sharpie.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7447.1 "Your Favorite Leadership Hypocricy Story"

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Monday, June 30, 2003

This is a letter about the (lack of) progress, the lies and divisiveness escalating in NYC.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I would like to inform you of what’s happening behind the scenes that only a select few have been informed of. Earlier in the week, I spoke with a former ministry leader who informed me that there was a plan in place to put Sheridan Wright to lead Manhattan. Tonight I had a conversation with Norman to confirm all of these plans.

Norman told me, he is stepping down from the Mid-Manhattan Worship Services transition group. Norman, Sam & Sheridan do not believe that our Region is moving in the right direction and that the transition groups are not working. They are planning to hold a midweek service on Wednesday nights at our space on 96th Street & CPW, led by Sheridan Wright. They believe that the church needs a strong leader to run things, basically we need Sheridan and Sam Powell to lead, not these focus groups we have established. Sheridan has stated clearly that Sam is his Elder, and he is not open to any plan that does not include the ICOC. (In other words financial autonomy is not an option) They disagree with the direction our congregation is heading. Anyone who doesn’t agree with them should not come to the worship services on wends day nights. Sheridan is already in the works to find an apartment; he asked me last night to help him look for a two-bedroom apartment in Manhattan. He is already pulling couples out of our region to join them….(i.e. Tom & Pam Gurrentz, Norman & Jeni Vosshulta). So we would be on our own on Tuesday nights…….. I’m presuming we will lose our space.

What bothers me is t hat all of this was done secretly,without any input from the mid-Manhattan Congregation. All the while Norman is pleading with us to be patient with the Church office and give them more time, for us to be united and work together. Meanwhile, plans are in motion to leave us high and dry, completely abandoning the faithful who have persevered and stayed in our Region to serve.

Our leaders promised that things were supposed to be different, that no longer would leadership outside of our local congregation make decisions for what’s best for us…that things will no longer be done in secret ……I really question how much has changed in the last 4 months… (Maybe we need to read Henry Kriete’s Letter again)

Its strange that the Church leadership didn’t have the time to answer our specific questions regarding our finances….but found the time to plan out Sheridan’s move from NJ to NYC…They say we don’t have a worship space on Sundays b/c we don’t have the money for it….but we have the money to negotiate an additional space on wends day nights, and yet we have the money to hire Sheridan (What kind of salary are we offering him??)….all the while we struggle without having a Sunday Space to worship in….We still have no answers to our questions regarding church finances…..and now our loyalty and patience is repaid with a slap in the face!!!!!!…..It seems like they are saying “Thanks Mid- Manhattan, for all the money, time and sacrifice you’ve given us over the years…….but if you don’t like what Sam, Norman & Sheridan believe go find your own worship space….Good luck” (Sounds familiar?????? ---- take a look at the transcript of the Rockland Sermon Sam Preached a few weeks ago…I’ll give you a re-cap..squash transition groups…reinforce the power and authority of the evangelist and elders….and if you don’t like it too bad….you are shown the door…good luck and we’ll pray for you)

Our elders and ministry staff are being completely divisive…we should remain unified as a region and continue to work our Salvation with fear and trembling and not take any action that would cause divisions.

I write this to encourage us to stand up and express our thoughts…this is Jesus’ church, His body…not Sam’s, not Sheridan’s or Norman’s….we need to stand up to them and not allow them to force us out…….we need to stand up and not allow anything to happen that would destroy our Region….lets protect our church’s unity….and not let it be torn apart by anyone. Brothers, sisters, I plead with you to let your thoughts be known….don’t let any man tell you where and when you should worship, we follow Jesus he is our leader…..

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter.

[ name deleted - initials JB ]

http://forums.delphiforums.com/nycoc/messages?msg=122.1 "DIVISIVENESS ESCALATING - New Letter"

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Wednesday, June 18, 2003

The minutes of the June 1, 2003 meeting of the Rockland County (New York Church of Christ) Transition Team is now available.

Also, Groundhogfly in ICC DF has started a thread about initiating a class action lawsuit against the ICC. Contact him at groundhogfly@hotmail.com or enter the discussion at the link.


For years the ICC has been collecting our money for "missions" contributions, and even coercing us to give. Yet a great deal of those monies have NOT been spent on missions.

Further, the church that earlier bragged that the books are open to members at all times has now taken away that right.

I am proposing a class action lawsuit to the following effects:

1. Show us the money. A full accounting of the books from every church, every world sector, KNN, HOPE, DPI, etc.

2. All that money you collected for "missions", but didn't spend on missions, I'd like to have that back, thank you very much.

Nobody would get rich off such a suit, but that's not the point. With the awards, we could:

A. Pay some of the debts we accrued while we were foolishly making the "OTC" our financial priority. Or,

B. Practice, for a change, the Christian principle of helping the poor. Or,

C. Or support real evangelists who actually teach the real gospel, without any of the trappings of institutional "church" to oppress those to whom they preach.

And such an action would get the attention of District Attorneys everywhere, as it would uncover a great deal of fraud and embezzlement. It would also break the bank of ICC, and expose the thugs who run it, so that their minions could have another chance to see straight (though the Bible affords such an opportunity as it is.)

(For those of you who are thinking it's ungodly for a Christian to sue another Christian, I agree with you. And if I held that the ICC organization was from God, I wouldn't be espousing such an action. If they were from God, we'd have seen the books already.)

Anyone else interested in joining such an action?

It has been brought to my attention that some may not wish to discuss this on the forum. Any who are interested can contact me privately at groundhogfly@hotmail.com.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7038.1 "GROUNDHOGFLY / Class Action Lawsuit"

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