Saturday, October 27, 2007

Boohoo!!!

Mike Taliaferro tears his garments over the fact that the pseudo-ICOC has no official web site. But mommy ... the Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, not to mention every other organization out there has a free website !

Sweetie, no amount of official web site is going to offset the 1,000,000,000's of web pages of testimonials that say you're a cult leader! Now go play with your toys. All 70% of them.

http://www.icochotnews.com/?q=node/62

(Discussion here and here)

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Wednesday, February 28, 2007

Exercise

An innocent discussion on health and exercise mentions a certain former WML and American Idol aspirant's boob job while working for the church, along with the usual rant about never having enough time to work out or do anything for your health while in the ICOC... but wasn't McKean a big "jock"? I guess only ministry people can take care of themselves, including their boob size!!

(also mentions the only weight-loss program that's ever worked for me, and we're not talking about Weigh Down...)

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Tuesday, December 19, 2006

OK, now Kip's MOVING to LA.

I agree ttk: "Time to pop the popcorn!"

per his sermon......leaving Steve in charge. Taking the Gonzalez(older and younger), DJ Comisford for now and then DJ will be going to NYC later in year. Taking Bordeleis(sp) and Underhills as shepherds.

Also sending teams to Brisbane and London in 2007.

ttk

Plus additional rumors on why Kip may have put Steve Johnson in charge of Portland.

just wondering....

I just read the DT letter and it refers to him without using his name..but being the only brother still with kipper. My personal opinion of sj is that he just went with kip to ease his conscience of the guilt. I know he was also really close to DA who just spoke against kipper. It makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes with him. Is DA trying to talk some sense into him? Is it now just a matter of job security? or does he still believe it 100% and will die with the kipster? It would be interesting to see how it played out if even he turned away.

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Monday, April 17, 2006

Letter from a Leader (2003)

This is quite an old letter but it still applies today. See also the insightful reply below the letter.

Letter posted by RoseGvr.
Recent response (4/2006) by Chava123



As background in case you don't know me - I was baptized in XXX in
l9XX, moved to XXX on the mission team in XX, worked as a XXXX for XXX, then went into the ministry at XX years old. My husband and I married in XX, and we moved wherever we were asked (more times than I can count), and sold everything to move Overseas for XX years before returning to the U.S. and coming to back to U.S.

We resigned from the ministry after over many years. I felt so much pressure to produce numbers, look a certain way, dress a certain way, have a beautiful home, make the stage at church beautiful, have beautiful people singing on stage, etc. - in short, a lot of emphasis on all the wrong things, but I didn't realize it at the time.

Having been in the ministry for a long time, and now having worked in
secular jobs for over XX years, I feel I have a unique perspective. I had no idea while I was in the ministry how out of touch I was with what "real" or "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives were.

I don't think anyone who has been in the ministry for years, especially if they went into the ministry straight out of college and never worked, can really grasp this until you've experienced it. I cannot emphasize enough to not underestimate how difficult it is to change the way you have thought when you have been in the ministry for years & years.

I hadn't taught in the Sunday school program since l983, although I had counselled (and corrected and rebuked) people on their attitudes about teaching. I had no idea what it was like when Wednesday night classes ran late, and what it was like to try to pick up the pieces of 2 tired children on Thursday morning at 6:45 trying to get them to school.

After only my first week working at the Medical Center as a XX for 12 hour shifts, the realization hit me how demanding I had thought my schedule was when I was on staff - now every day was much more intense than that staff meeting Tuesday as I went to work, tried to cook dinner before I left in the morning, arranged childcare for my children, etc. I was used to always being right, always having my opinion be the right one, telling people what to do all day long, and thinking I always knew better.

After resigning, it was the best thing that ever happened to us to stay where we had led (not go somewhere else, and certainly not to go somewhere else and accept another ministry job! that certainly wouldn't fit the definition of resignation) and learn the MANY lessons that we needed to learn. It was humbling and difficult to be on the other side of the pulpit, but you get a different, and very valuable view from there.

It's hard to explain the mindset that occurs when you have been in the
ministry for a long time. I really thought that being in the ministry was the only thing worth doing, that only the "best" people could do it, and so I looked down on everyone else for not being "sharp" enough to be in the ministry.

I was used to always being right, making judgements about big, little and totally unimportant things and expecting the people around me to do things my way, always having people help me with my responsibilities in life, being able to delegate anything I didn't want to do, having babysitters always readily available, using people to get my goals accomplished and make me look good (although at the time I thought it was sincere and best for them), etc. The pride and arrogance were overwhelming.

It has taken years to understand that no one else in the church has this carte blanche lifestyle. (We could sure use some of those babysitters now!!)

Recently, a couple we are close to came to us asking for a short term loan to be able to buy their child glasses. The husband has a full time job and a masters degree and the wife works part time. It hit me this is how most of the middle class in the United States lives - one thing goes wrong (a broken transmission, needing new glasses, an unexpected medical bill) and you are unable to meet your financial obligations. When you're in the ministry, all of your needs are met: medical insurance (even co-pays), mileage allowances for travel, expense account allowances for housing and entertainment, and so you are shielded from this kind of financial pressure.

So we asked people to be sacrificial, when really we weren't experiencing any real kind of financial sacrifice ourselves, as all of our needs were always met.

Myself, as well as all of the "old-timers" who have been in the ministry for years, have built a crumbling mess. It has not been easy to "fix" me (especially my thinking) and even after 4 years out of the ministry, I'm still not "fixed" because I have been trained in elitism, arrogance, harshness, judgementalism, and pride.

I am extremely concerned about the rushing stampede to hire Sam Laing to come to Athens. It is obvious the many strengths that Sam and Geri have to offer - their marriage, family, counselling ability, etc. But, from my viewpoint after having been in the ministry for over 1/3 of my life, having had 32 years in the ministry is not a plus, but a serious minus.

I have nothing against Sam & Geri Laing, but I have seen the mindset, priviledges, lifestyle and thought process that a leader on his "level" or "tier" in the ICOC system has been steeped in. I also believe many of these mindsets will not even be obvious to Sam for a long time, because we have been thoroughly indoctrinated in that way of thinking.

I believe that Sam is sincere in wanting to repent and that the Triangle church in many ways wasn't as oppressive or controlling as some of the ICOC churches have been, yet it will take time, and many painful conversations, to learn a new way of thinking and dealing with people. Leaving a church after resigning to come somewhere else without staying and learning the lessons there is a red flag to me too. I don't even think it is possible to know what those lessons might even be except with the passing of time.

I haven't seen any evidence of repentance, or even openness, about finances or leaders lifestyles. And although it hasn't been said, I wonder if this rush to hire the Laings has a lot to do with when their severance package expires. I don't want the church to make any huge decisions rashly and without everyone feeling great about the decisions, especially because of money issues.

---
As someone stated above the identity of the person was not carefully concealed. I knew eactly who it was after reading the first paragraph. If you were in the Athens church there is only one person who this could be.

While her humility seems genuine and I agree with a lot of what she says I think you have to look at the actions of the person. This WML is acting as if she had a major revelation and is truly humbled and sorry for her actions. But you have to look at her actions now.

Many people in the church here have a lot of feelings about her and her husband because while other leaders stood and and apoligized to the entire congragation, they did not. They left the church and many people here believe they owe them an apology. True they were not in the ministry at the time, but they were for years. For years they had been part of the emotional abuse that went on in the church. Often they were the ones that were being abusive. They never apoligized. I worked under her for years and was victim to her abuse. I have seen her several times since she has left the church and never once has she offered an apology or expressed any regret.

So while the letter sounds nice. I would still say she doesn't get it. She has no idea. It's not enough to write an anonymous letter to a website and expect that to make it all right.

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Monday, January 16, 2006

Steve and Lisa Johnson Join Kip in Portland

“I am a part of the fellowship of the Unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. I won't look back, let up, slow down, back away or be still. My past is redeemed, my present makes sense and my future is secure. I am finished and done with low living, sight walking, small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams, tame visions, mundane talking, chintzy giving and dwarfed goals."

Read the rest of Steve's schizophrenic babble at the Portland web site. Kip, ho!

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005

Special Missions a Scam: Straight from the Horse's mouth

From WildJen on ICCDF.

Here it is, folks, straight from the horse's mouth. Andy Fleming, current administrator of Middle East World Sector, and member of the board of other ICOC corporations, admits that SMC funds in the past were considered "unrestricted" funds (although they were advertised as being for the specific purpose of missions). Fleming says that as much as 50% was funneled off to meet LOCAL administrative overhead in US Churches.

"The Middle East World Sector has provided financial information from 1995 forward and subsequently Andy Fleming, who currently oversees those funds, came and met with the Board to respond to our questions. In the course of reviewing this financial information and meeting with Andy we learned that between 1995 and 2002 monies sent to the Middle East World Sector were "Unrestricted" and only 50-55% was actually directly supporting foreign missions. In a letter from Andy to the San Diego Church of Christ dated October 29, 2005 he explains how the funds were used."

More analysis to follow. See his admission letter, along with documentation here.

http://www.icocinvestigation.com/mews.htm

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Monday, October 10, 2005

Brother's Letter to Kip

The divisions continue. The blind accusing the blind.

Posted by sickid on ICCDF.


Letter http://www.usd21.org/1.0/media/kipfinal2.html

Kip's (Portland Elder's) brief response, with more to come:
http://www.usd21.org/1.0/index.php?langID=1&artID=56

---
Date: October 3, 2005

To our dear brother Kip,
Brother, we thank God for our relationships with you as brothers in Christ. Some of us fondly remember over 30 years ago when we all became totally committed followers of Jesus as college students at the University of Florida. Others of us deeply love you for your calling us to be disciples of Jesus and to his mission of world evangelism. All of us are grateful to God for how he used you to help lead the unification of brothers and sisters from all parts of the restoration movement to build a movement that took the gospel around the world in such a short time. Your personal love for the lost and vision for us challenge us to obey the Word of God. Your convictions about discipleship, as well as your zeal and faith, have all been incredibly inspirational to us. We pray that the many ways God has used our love for him -- sacrifices, willingness to go anywhere, do anything and give up everything in numerous places around the globe -- have encouraged you.

We also thank God for the discipline and the grace that he has brought on our movement, showing us to be children he cares for. All of us have shared in the mountaintop experiences that have spread to all continents of souls being baptized into Christ through faith, churches being planted and relationships multiplying. We have also shared in the maturing hand of God showing us our mistakes and failures. We have all been humbled by God and are glad that we were able to confess our sins together and apologize to each other and to the people that we lead. Confession brings healing. Repentance brings a time of refreshing that only God can give (Acts 3:19). .

It has been a joy and a maturing experience to grow up in God's family together. Because of the depth of spiritual family relationships that we share and the way God has connected us as "supporting ligaments" in the body of Christ, we are writing this letter to you today.

God has used you in powerful ways to seek and save the lost and to plant churches around the world. He has given you an unusual mixture of talents that we admire. For those we are forever grateful. Those victories for God that you have led us to should always be to his glory and should never be disrespected or discarded

God has also disciplined you. As you have often said, God works his will through people. Disciples have made Jesus Lord and Savior, and have learned to speak the truth in love to confront sin out of concern for souls and for the body of Christ. After numerous personal conversations, discipleship groups, prayers and pleadings confronting you with the leadership sins in your life over a number of years, you resigned as the Lead Evangelist of the Los Angeles Church of Christ in November 2001. After more pleading and prayers, you resigned as Missions Evangelist and recognized leader for the International Churches of Christ in November 2002. We wept at your confession and were eagerly looking forward to your repentance. We were very hopeful in the Spirit that your repentance would produce "a harvest of righteousness 2nd peace." Yet, at the 2004 International Leadership Conference in Chicago, several brothers had to meet with you once again to ask you to repent of your arrogance and attitude towards other Christians. Recently, because of your unrepentant heart and actions, several churches have publicly rebuked and warned you about your divisiveness. You were also recently removed from the program of the 2005 International Leadership Conference and were removed from the planning group for next year's conference for being divisive. You responded by mocking these rebukes in your sermons and articles and by using your time at the 2005 ILC to recruit people to Portland and to your side. You have already begun to start your churches in other cities, not by evangelism, but by causing factions from existing churches. The Phoenix Valley Church elders have invoked God's Scriptures TO protect their flock from you (Acts 20:25-30). How can this be a repentance of YOUR continued sins of leadership?

You have consistently refused to repent of these sins when confronted. Because we love God first, we love you. We are more than willing to imitate Jesus in you. In the following areas we do not see Jesus and cannot imitate these things. Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Hebrews 13:7 We have often imitated your faith and are grateful. We have also considered the outcome of your way of life and we must confront you with your life.

Brother, we are writing this letter today because over a number of years leading up to and since your resignations, we have spoken privately and in groups with you about our concern that you have shown worldly sorrow and not godly sorrow. Many of us have spoken with you urgently in recent weeks because, instead of true repentance producing a harvest of righteousness and peace, your lack of repentance is producing a harvest of unrighteousness, dissension, confusion and division. You have refused to listen to us individually, so we came in love as groups of brothers in accord with the principle of Matthew 18. You have consistently said that you repented and changed and yet you have continued in the very behavior you claimed you repented of. In fact, you have worn many of us out in our confrontation of your sins. You have rationalized your sins by pointing to your baptisms and church growth. Those are evidences of the grace of God with those new Christians. Paul himself pointed out that people who are preaching the gospel out of envy, rivalry and selfish ambition can still help people become Christians (Philippians 1: 15- 18). The Scriptures are clear as to our responsibility to you and to the people of God. It is very sad to us that though you are a hero in the faith to us in many ways, you have not matured spiritually.

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17
Many of us signing this letter have confronted you personally and in groups with your sin over a number of years. We are now bringing other brothers who have also signed this letter as witnesses of your sins. They are in agreement with this call to repentance.

Following are sins that you have publicly and in print claimed that you repented of -- something we have all so much wanted to believe.

You confessed all of these sins in Revolution Through Restoration Part 3, pages 4-7. (2003). You have confessed them in bulletin articles and in sermons. You were confronted with your lack of repentance in a meeting with several of us at the Chicago International Leadership Conference in September of 2004. Yet you continue to consistently live in these sins. Through the private communication of this letter, we are asking you one more time to have godly sorrow and to show your repentance by your deeds. If you do not listen and do not show godly sorrow, then you give us no choice but to take your continued sins to our family of churches around the world in the hopes that you will listen to them and repent of these sins.

1. Pride, Arrogance and Anger:

"During the sabbatical, God taught me to take full responsibility for my leadership in the kingdom, the decisions of the World Sector Leaders and for the spiritual condition of each person in my family. My sins are clear and grievous. I have been arrogant, almost always thinking I was right. I did not listen. I did not actively seek discipling for me and my family. I was only partially open and deceit came into my life. This led to the sin of anger towards those who disagreed with me. Too often, I viewed these individuals as critical. I did not draw people out. I built an atmosphere in which people were afraid to speak up. There were times when I corrected people that I was mean, cruel and I even humiliated them. I was too controlling. For this l apologize. I am truly sorry."

"Ultimately, my most devastating sin was claiming God's victory as mine. In pride, I boasted in "my" accomplishments. I allowed people to give me glory; I did not refocus them to God."

Brother, we are glad you have acknowledged these sins, but we do not see change in you beyond mere surface changes to satisfy people for the moment. We would also add that you not only allow people to give you the glory, you encourage it and reward them for it as in the most recent Portland Jubilee.

You have said publicly that you repented of your arrogance. At the Portland Church Builder Conference, shortly after you said you had repented of your arrogance and pride, you said, "I can fix any church." When you were recently asked privately if you were willing to be a team player with other brothers in cooperative leadership, your response was, "You don't understand. I am the star."

Your writing, your sermons and your website consistently contain unseemly, immature and unwholesome self-promotion and propaganda. It took multiple conversations from many of us before you ever commended any church but your own. You say publicly that you have repented of lifting yourself up, yet almost every bulletin article is about you and your ministry. Your entire view of our fellowship centers around who is with you and who is against you. This is unrighteous, unspiritual, immature and even irrational.

2. Disrespect, Gossip, Slander and Condemnation Towards Churches and Disciples

In Boston the Gempels and Bairds helped us build "family" in the church. However, gradually, in the LA years, my constant short-term growth goals created pressure on the ministry staff that translated to hurtful pressure on members. When combined with a legalistic mindset, disciples were made to feel they could never measure up, too often wondering if they were fruitful or even saved. This robbed them of their joy as disciples. In seeing the need to build a model church, I wrongly compelled far too many good leaders and other disciples from numerous congregations to move to LA. The problem was exacerbated because I did not communicate my gratitude to these other churches, and then I expected them to duplicate our efforts after taking some of their most effective soul winners. For this I am deeply sorry. (From Revolution Through Restoration 3, page 7)

Many of us have confronted you with the numerous ways you continue to slander and hurt the churches you helped build. You admittedly compelled them to give millions of dollars and hundreds of Bible Talk Leaders to fulfill noble dreams and then turned around and condemned those churches for not growing like your church did with their resources. This alone was incredulous. For the last two years, you have been confronted with your continued disrespectful writings about other churches, many of whom are hurting precisely because of the results of many of the sins you confessed. Yet you continue to judge and condemn disciples and churches because they are not like your church. It is difficult to imagine how a humble and contrite leader could possibly write the condemning and disparaging words that you have written. You have become like the father who continually exasperates his children and then condemns them for not wanting a relationship with him.

Brother, for years we have appealed to you to be more careful about your tongue. Yet you admittedly continue to publish statements about churches based on one-sided conversations and hearsay. You are careless with the truth. You are reckless with words. You use what you hear to promote a point of view you want to believe - that our family of churches cannot succeed without your personal leadership. You continually talk about the reports you hear from people in other churches who are hurting. Yet we never hear about your calling the church in that city to even verify the information or to inquire about the person who was calling. (See #3 below.) Despite being admonished to the contrary on many occasions, you do not seek "both sides of the story" regarding these churches and their lasting relationships (Proverbs 18:17).

It is obvious to most that you praise those who are clearly aligned with you or others whom you are trying to persuade to your position. You have praised small churches that have joined themselves with you and emphasized their few baptisms, but fail to mention the churches that have continued to be planted in the last few years or other churches who are growing and baptizing (examples like the church in Nairobi, Kenya that have had 182 baptisms in the first eight months of 2005). As well as the need for repentance and healing in many of our churches, many good news reports and a deep desire for unity were broadly acknowledged by the 800 attendees to the 2005 ILC. This has been your persistent behavior for as long as we have known you

3. Ungodly Ethics

Recently you were confronted with involving yourself in other churches while disrespecting the existing relationships of those churches. Two examples are the churches in Montreal, Canada and in Santiago, Chile. Your response was, "I would rather ask for forgiveness than permission." We renounce this ethic as ungodly and a deliberate sin. It is the epitome of the thinking that says, "The end justifies the means." If Jesus had thought this way, he would never have been able to be our Savior. We cannot believe the apostles or early church leaders lived or led in such a political, unethical way.

You give deceitful impressions. You are not willing to be discipled by any other peer or group of peers. You continue to give the deceitful impression that you are being discipled and have strong and respected men in your life; you publish names of people you are supposedly accountable to. But we all know that you have not demonstrated a consistent humility toward any brother who has been in your life for a long time and who knows your sins. Again, this deception is another example of ungodly ethics.

4. Hatred, Discord, Jealousy, Selfish Ambition, Dissensions, Factions and Envy (Galatians 5:19-21)

For years, while many aspects of your leadership have been admirable, a well-known part of your leadership has been to pit people against each other competitively and to discredit others who might rival you for people's loyalty. This is sinful.

You have admitted to these sins in the past. You have reaped the fruit of these sins. Yet, when asked what your ideas are for unifying us once again and helping our churches to heal, mature and return to our mission, your answer is to go back and do what you did in the 1980s. You are in fact attempting to do just that. If you continue on this course, you will build some churches. And you will reap the same short-term attractive results and the same long-term painful results. You must repent and learn how to work with other leaders in true adult to adult relationships. You are no longer a young man with lack of experience for an excuse.

In your private conversations, in your public proclamations and on your new website conceived to carry your message, you continue to lift yourself up (Proverbs 27:2) and to cause division. No commendable person in the Bible talks about himself as much as you do. Even as recently as the 2005 International Leadership Conference in Seattle, you spent much of your time trying to draw people to you and turn them against their existing relationships. In your Portland Story article printed on August 21,2005, you said,

However, as of this Jubilee the Portland leadership believes it is time for a progressive "calling-out of the remnant of disciples" from dying, former ICOC Churches. For years, I have preached "one church-one city;" in other words, each city should have only one church of disciples, because if they are faithful to God, He will multiply them to evangelize not only their city but the whole region. (Acts 19:8-10) I still believe in this same principle. Sadly, it has become the practice of some former ICOC churches to break-up into geographic groups or groups of various convictions about commitment to Christ, discipling and church government. If a group asks for help to restore the foundation of sold-out disciples, we will help in any way we can. Biblically, disciples can never rebel against authority, yet as seen with David who "chose" to transfer his allegiance from the ungodly Saul to the uncircumcised Achish (1 Samuel 27: 1-4) one is "free to choose" whom to submit to!

In the fall the Portland leadership will begin to seek out church leaderships in congregations that are struggling to ask if we can help them build a foundation of sold-out disciples. If they are not inclined to receive help, then we will offer help to any group that would prefer to be in a new congregation composed of only sold-out disciples. To the casual observer, this may look like "two churches in one city." Yet, in time it will be obvious who has God's approval

In actuality, there are many churches around the world that are more mature, and are providing an overall more mature and spiritual example than the Portland Church. There are also churches who are devastated. Many churches are helping these hurting churches, but you consistently fail to recognize this because they have not directly aligned themselves with you or asked you for help.

Brother, we hope and believe that you would be the first to vehemently oppose the arrogance and 'divisiveness in these comments if they were from anyone else but yourself. You have made known to the world your disregard for anyone's ability to help any other church except yourself. Most mature people who have known you the best over the last 20 to 30 years are the ones who have lost confidence in your spiritual life. Instead of accepting the reasons they give for their lack of confidence (your unrepented sins), you instead turn it around on them, blame them and trust your own analysis. (Proverbs 14: 12)

You have never built a large church without pulling people from other churches. In your personal ministries, the fires exposed that much of them was built with wood, hay and straw instead of gold and silver (1 Corinthians 3: 12-15). The firestorm that went through our churches in the last few years has revealed what was built well and what was destroyed. Your calls for unity are only sounded when they lead to loyalty to you. Now you have twisted an obscure Scripture to call for disloyalty and rebellion in churches that are healing and are trying to rebuild. This is immature, immoral and unrighteous.

Biblically, disciples can never rebel against authority, yet as seen with David who "chose" to transfer his allegiance from the ungodly Saul to the uncircumcised Achish. (1 Samuel 27:l-4) One is "free to choose" whom to submit to!
(From The Portland Story,August 21, 2005)

It does not take a prophet to know that many of our churches have been hurting. And yet, many are either on the road to recovery and revival or desire to be. Others have given up on basic biblical teaching, and certainly need to be helped to get back to the Scriptures. But we do not believe that they represent the majority. We are devoted to building up the churches, serving them and calling them to following Jesus. We are committed to the Lordship of Jesus, to helping our churches mature spiritually and to evangelizing the world in cooperation with each other. However, we must also do what we can to protect them from your ungodly and divisive intentions which you have made clear in The Portland Story, in your refusal to retract the article and in your actions since the article.

The Phoenix Valley Church leadership has called the disciples there to recommit their lives to God and to the church by asking them to sign letters of commitment. Yet you and your members have recently initiated the beginning of a new church in Phoenix and have called members of the Phoenix church in an attempt to pull them away into this new church. If you were "making every
effort to keep the unity of the spirit" (Ephesians 4:3), you would not do this. If you were not intending to divide, you would not do this. Your actions and your words demonstrate that your intention is to draw people to yourself. (Acts 20:30) God's Word commands us to be faithful to our duties as evangelists and shepherds of God's flock. And you have often challenged evangelists and elders to obey God's Word and protect the flock. Sadly, even though God has used you in tremendous ways through the years, we refuse to sentimentally let you distort the Word of God. We must be faithful to our charge without favoritism.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. 2 Timothy 4:1-5

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. Acts 20:28-31

I Charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. 1 Timothy 5:21

The Elders of the Phoenix Church have opposed you with these very Scriptures that you have advocated for years. (See the Phoenix Church website.)

We must protect those who are drawn to your great qualities and are naive as to your unrepented sins. You are confusing and exploiting many who are young, as well as those who are unaware of your past sins. Many disciples have no knowledge of the depth of the impact of your sins because we chose to confront you privately about these things and have chosen not to share these things publicly. Although in most of these conversations you were defensive and prideful, time was given for you to have a change of heart and a godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7: 11-ff). At other times, you would apologize and promise change, only to blatantly commit the same sins again and again. You have been confronted privately many times by many different people. As a group, we have now reached a conviction that more than enough time has passed for you to repent. If you do not repent and confess your sins immediately, we must tell those who are unaware in order to protect them from your sins. May you heed the words of Jesus himself:

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 'But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! . . . See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. Matthew 18:l-7, 10


5. Worldly Sorrow

We understand that you have endured much sorrow. For the times you have endured sorrow for righteousness, we admire you. However, we call you to get rid of your bitterness, resentment and self-pity (Ephesians 4:31). We admonish you to repent of worldly sorrow. As your brothers and friends, we beg you to repent by your making your godly sorrow undeniably clear.

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 2 Corinthians 7:10-11

We rejoice that you are zealous for souls. Sadly, we also find you to continue to be zealous for your opinions and your own leadership, and stubbornly set on your selfish ambition. In direct contradiction to this passage, we rather continue to see in you:

Short-lived sincerity, great eagerness to defend yourself, indignation at others instead of at your own sin, alarm at the condition of the church but little concern for your own arrogance, concern for others as long as they suit your plans, and blaming your discipline and your bitterness on other people. At nearly every point you have proved yourself to be unrepentant in these matters.

You have often taught and expected others to show godly sorrow. You teach that whole churches can repent quickly, but how can you demand repentance from other churches when you yourself do not repent for years?

The good-hearted early disciples demonstrated godly sorrow.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Acts 2:36
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. Acts 26:20

We challenge you to make your life match your teaching and your doctrine. Because we have had so many conversations with you about these things over many, many years, and so that you clearly know there is a way for you to repent, we challenge you to repent in these specific ways:

Print, publicly apologize for and stop:

Your continued pride, arrogance and anger.
Your selfish ambition, seeking to be first and continually drawing attention to yourself in your sermons, your publications and your conversations.
Judging and condemning other churches. As pointed out in the Seattle letter to you, the slander towards the New York City Church was never repented of. Numerous other examples litter your writings and speeches.
Blaming other people for many of the problems you helped author that are making many of our churches weak.
Causing division among faithful Christians by "calling out the remnant" and starting churches where there are existing churches of disciples.
Recruiting people to move to Portland and dividing people from their church families in order to start new congregations in the same city.
Blaming other people for the problems in your own family.
The immoral ethics of sinning deliberately now and asking for forgiveness later.

Take these steps to turn around and guard your heart for the future:
Identify a group of five of your lifelong peers who have confronted you on your sin and whom you are willing to submit to for discipling your life, your heart and your ministry.
Use your website to promote all people, churches and messages that are biblical and that are advancing the gospel in any way.
Build your ministry through planting and watering in your own city. Renounce recruiting and playing politics with the ministry.
Regularly invite into your ministry mature brothers who know you well, will speak the truth in love and who are committed to brotherhood unity, biblical doctrine and to evangelism.
Publish a statement with the approval of the five brothers in your peer discipling group (see # 1) affirming:
Your repentance and godly sorrow
Your commitment to cooperate with other churches who have the same convictions without your claiming a leadership role and without your having to dominate others.
Your commitment to each of the above on this repentance list.
Reconcile with the churches you have offended.

We are praying for you not to give in to Satan's temptation to respond to this rebuke with worldly sorrow. By our experience with you in the past many years, if you are unrepentant, you will do the following:
Be indignant that we would correct you because of all you have done for God and for us. We appeal to you to hear that we would not go to this length if we did not love you. And we appeal to you to not hate correction. He who heeds discipline shows the way to life, but whoever ignores correction leads others astray. Proverbs 10:17
Play the martyr. Please do not demean the cross of Jesus by portraying yourself as being crucified. You are being rebuked as God directs us to. You charged many of us with being evangelists who were willing to preach the Word without favoritism. We have all been rebuked and challenged to repent. We must expect the same mature repentance from you. See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12
Blame this rebuke on us, Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? Galatians 4:16
Plan a strategic, political, response to our rebuke. We have no interest in politics. We are only interested in upholding God's honor, in your soul and the souls of those affected by your sins. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:29-32.
Use this rebuke to further divide churches and cause divisions, factions and dissensions that result in more followers for you.
Ignore our rebuke and call for us to repent, thus throwing the issues back on us.
Completely ignore our call to repentance.

Our Motivation

We want to clearly state our motivation. You are not our enemy. You are our brother.

(Ephesians 6:12)
We are concerned first for your soul. What we have learned from God , , and the Scriptures leads us to love you enough to call you to repentance for your sake.
We are concerned for your family. We pray for all your children to return to God. We know that your own spiritual life is a great key to that.
We are concerned for those faithful people in our churches who are strong. We are concerned that they know the truth so you will not be a stumbling block to them as you have been to many before.
We are concerned for those who are weak. You said you repented of your lack of concern for them. We beg you to prove it by your deeds.
We are concerned for the churches you will build in the future. If you sow the same seeds, you will reap the same problems (Galatians 6:7-8). If you build with the same hay and straw, another fire will burn it up in the future.
Forgiveness

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14,15

All who are signing this letter have already forgiven you in our hearts. Our only expectation is repentance on your part. We stand ready to continually repent on our part.

Our Convictions:

So that you will clearly understand and so that you will not misrepresent us, we state our belief in the following convictions and are diligently and vigorously working to disciple them into our own churches. We don't want Satan to tempt you or your people to think that a lack of conviction motivates this reproof. We fervently believe in:

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, our Lord and Savior
The Bible is the Word of God and is the authority for our life.
Jesus called all men to become his disciples, be baptized into his body and to be taught to obey.
Every disciple is to be totally committed to God, His Kingdom and to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Every disciple is called to participate in the Great Commission of Jesus
Every disciple is called to obey the one another passages of Scripture.
Every disciple is called to maintain the Spirit of unity in the bond of peace.
Every disciple is called to follow the Greatest Commandment: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself.

We commit to do everything in our power that is godly to help unify our churches, to mature them and to reach the world with the gospel.

We would love to do this together with you. Please humble yourself, repent and join us.

Love in Christ always,

Javier Amaya Los Angeles USA
Ed Bahula Toronto Canada
Al Baird Los Angeles USA
Martin Bentley Orlando USA & South America
Tom Brown Los Angeles USA
Ron Brumley Seattle USA
John Brush South Florida USA
John Causey Los Angeles USA
Jeff Chacon San Diego USA
Steve Chin Taipei Taiwan
Duncan Comrie Johannesburg S. Africa
Malcolm Cox London England
Brian Felushko Vancouver Canada
Thierry Fender Geneva Switzerland
Gordon Ferguson Phoenix USA
Mike Fontenot Virginia Beach USA
Andy Fleming Los Angeles USA
Herve Fleurant Denver USA
Blaise Feumba Abidjan Ivory Coast & West Africa
Marty Fuqua Los Angeles USA
Anthony Galang Los Angeles USA
Scott Green Seattle USA
Kevin Holland Los Angeles USA
Bill Hooper Dallas USA
Douglas Jacoby Atlanta USA
Jake Jensen Los Angeles USA
Tom Jones Nashville USA
Jay Kelly Seattle USA
Sam Laing Athens USA
Philip Lam Hong Kong China
Roger Lamb Chicago USA
Cesar Lopez Manila Philippines
John Louis Singapore Singapore & SE Asia
John Lusk St. Louis USA
Michael Luzine Toronto Canada
Kevin Mains Los Angeles USA
Gregg Marutzky Denver USA
Chip Mitchell Boston USA
Steve Mukenya Nairobi Africa
Reese Neyland Los Angeles USA
Daren Overstreet Seattle USA
John Porter Miami USA
Sam Powell New York City USA
Chris Reed Denver USA
Justin Renton Cape Town S. Africa
John Reus South Florida USA & South America
Kevin Robbins Toronto Canada
Mike Rock Los Angeles USA
Steve Saindon Minneapolis USA
Charlie Sawyer Kansas City USA
Wyndham Shaw Boston USA
Tony Singh Chicago USA
Rob Skinner Ashland, Oregon USA
Steve Staten Chicago USA
Jerry Sugarman Los Angeles USA
Peti Szabad Budapest Hungary
Greg Tacher Seattle USA
MikeTaliaferro San Antonio USA
Marty Udall Toronto Canada
Mike Vassallo Melbourne Australia
Bruce Williams Los Angeles USA
Tomm Wilson Chicago USA

---
Kip's Response

Urgent Concern
John 8:3-9 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
This past week Kip McKean received a letter that was signed by many brothers in our fellowship. Due to its length and scope, as well as the seriousness of the accusations, each Portland House Church Leader, Staff Member and Elder-In-Training will review the document and pray to God for humility and wisdom as we determine how to respond. The letter was prefaced by a request to reply within three days. In order to satisfy that deadline, we will take time to pray for a biblical, godly, and righteous response as opposed to a reactionary or retalitorial one. We are grateful for how God has blessed our ministry and for all the sacrificial ways that Kip and Elena has served our congregation. Our ultimate goal is to honor God and to please Him.

At this point we will post this critical letter on both of our websites for three reasons; First, to inform others, Secondly, because it has already been sent to most recognized and regarded evangelists worldwide, and three due to the fact that we were informed it would be posted on “Disciples Today” by Friday.

As soon as feasible, a more thorough response will be written and posted. Please consider what has been written and pray for us and the McKeans.

In Humility,
Bob Bertalot and Tony Untalan
Elders in Training

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Sunday, October 09, 2005

And, the Unity Group Invites Proposals

The insanity continues.

Posted by WildJen on ICCDF.


An Invitation to Submit Proposals for Unity and Cooperation
Brotherhood Cooperation Proposal Group

October 2, 2005

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

We are grateful to God for all he has done among our family of churches called The International Churches of Christ. He has redeemed us by the blood of Christ, built churches on every continent, disciplined us as his sons and daughters and now is preparing a harvest of righteousness and truth. The opportunities ahead are staggering.

From the firestorm we have experienced together, we have all been refocused on the foundation of our churches which is -- Jesus Christ. We have also been given greater insight into which parts of our ministries were being built with “gold, silver and costly stones” and which were being built with “wood, hay or straw.” As a fellowship of churches we again have the opportunity to do what many Christian groups would long for – to recommit ourselves to the ideal of searching out the Scriptures for biblical principles and working together to humbly and prayerfully become the unified, caring body of Christ that God wants us to be – and to redefine their identity and connection in a prayerful, humble, collaborative and unifying manner.

During the International Leadership Conference in Seattle, it was evident that the Spirit of God was producing a growing desire for greater cooperation and unity among our fellowship of churches as a greater number of leaders were made more aware of the spiritual and financial toll that some of our churches have paid because of a breakdown of either unity, connection, or organization in different parts of our fellowship of churches. Out of a desire to help meet those and other needs, as described in more detail in the above excerpt from the announcement that first appeared on www.DisciplesToday.net, it was thought best to solicit and gather proposals from as many as possible. We have been asked to facilitate this process. Although we all know that there are many others who are equally (or more) qualified, we humbly accept this opportunity to serve the Body of Christ through our family of churches.

Purpose: The Holy Spirit created a unity among us through our repentance and baptism into the body of Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit and our mission as disciples of Christ. The challenge given to us in Scripture is to “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” (Ephesians 4:3) How we make every effort is where the proposals come in. Many of us see a need for greater unity and connections between congregations and leaderships of churches. We are eager to hear from those who have specific proposals.

Submitting Proposals: Our first goal is to make sure that every part of our brotherhood is invited to submit proposals for cooperation.

While we will certainly review proposals submitted by individuals, in order to make this project manageable, we ask that individuals first consider working in groups to allow the Spirit to work through each of you and to present us with your collective wisdom. “Many advisers make victory sure.” (Proverbs 11:14) Many of us are already traveling to, calling, speaking with and listening to various segments of our churches to make sure that the next month will be a fruitful writing and discussion period. We want everyone in our family of churches to have the opportunity to contribute to this process. Please forward this notice to others.

Scope of Proposals: The scope of these proposals is to offer a practical, godly way for our churches to cooperate in a unified manner to glorify God and accomplish his will. The most important issue is that we develop a clearly identified way to cooperate in a global manner to proclaim the gospel of Christ while respecting the local church.

Please feel free to address whatever part of our brotherhood cooperation and identity that you are most concerned with. Some of the areas that others have expressed a desire to address: simple statement of beliefs, mission plantings and funding, reconciliation and conflict resolution, continued training and shepherding of evangelists, elders, missionaries, and planted churches, unified beliefs, advice for hurting or weak churches, developing standards for administration, helping churches without ministers and ministers without churches, joint efforts with our youth, campus, singles, helping the poor, leadership development, etc. You may have a proposal that would address one or many of these areas.

We want to be clear to those who have trouble with writing, especially among to those outside of America – even brief emails and bullet points, no matter how coarse, are welcome. If you are limited by technology or language, please send your proposal on paper to any one of us and we will do our best to bring your thoughts as input into the process. Or send your proposal to: Steve Staten 655 W. Grand Avenue Suite 220 Elmhurst, Illinois 60126

We are not suggesting that the proposal that will be submitted by us to the churches by February 1, 2006 will be intended to solve every major challenge facing our churches. However, it is our prayer that God will help us suggest a proposal that will strengthen us locally and globally and enable us to more effectively accomplish God’s purposes throughout the world. The great diversity among us is a gift from God. When each part of our fellowship of churches works in unison and harmony, God will be glorified as souls are saved, healed and matured. (1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4)

Process: We request that all proposals be sent by November 1, 2005 to: unity@chnts.net. We will prayerfully review all proposals, synthesize the best ideas from them, and by February 1, 2006, submit a recommended proposal for brotherhood consideration to our family of churches.

Maintaining Connection
We ask all willing and able disciples to pray and fast with us on November 1, 2005 for the Spirit’s guidance and wisdom. We ask that you continue to pray that the Spirit will work together through us so that the resulting proposal by February 1, 2006 is fruitful in answering the main questions as to how we will connect and cooperate maintaining the Spirit’s unity in the future. We are committed to using the Bible as our standard and guide. The New Testament reveals churches sharing their correspondence (Colossians 4:16, Revelation 1-3), working together to solve an inter-congregational problem (Acts 15:1-4), financially supporting missionaries and mission work (Philippians 4:14-18), cooperating in helping the poor saints in Judea (2 Corinthians 8:16-21), etc. Although many of our congregations currently enjoy association with other sister congregations through cooperative mission efforts, historical ties and geographic proximity, there unfortunately remain others that feel isolated and unsupported or unsure as to how to proceed into the future. Let us consider how to help all parts of our family.

The recent Seattle conference revealed the sincere, widespread desire for togetherness and cooperation in our fellowship. There was a desire in the fellowship for new visions and improved plans to help our lost world receive the salvation of Jesus Christ. Truly God has blessed our family of churches to now be composed of mature churches, young adult and very young churches. As we let our Heavenly Father lead this family, the overall mood of our fellowship indicates that the vast majority of our churches desire unity, cooperation, coordination while renouncing selfish ambition and competition.

Updates
All proposals should be sent to unity@chnts.net by November 1, 2005. Watch www.DisciplesToday.net for updates from this proposal group. We solicit your prayers.

In Christ’s service,

Andy Fleming
Mike Fontenot
Scott Green
Philip Lam
John Louis
Sam Powell
Steve Staten
Mike Taliaferro
Bruce Williams


2005 Brotherhood Cooperation Proposal Group Announcement Excerpt
(Click here to read the full announcement previously published.)

Background
For many months, numerous brothers from our family of churches around the world have expressed a desire for a greater brotherhood cooperation to meet the needs of the disciples, the lost and the poor.

Following discussions with and recommendations from several church leaders around the world and sensing the opportunity for cooperation at the 2005 International Leadership Conference in Seattle, the elders and regional evangelists of the Los Angeles Church introduced a proposal a few weeks ago that included an appeal for brotherhood unity and revival. In the days that followed, it became obvious that additional time would enable more churches to prayerfully consider this initiative and furnish additional input and even other proposals. Therefore, at the beginning of the International Leadership Conference, the Los Angeles brothers recommended that their proposal be a part of a wider plan to solicit other proposals and asked the many churches who had agreed to the original initiative, or had expressed strong interest in it, to extend patience in favor of this broader plan to solicit additional proposals from all parts of our fellowship for consideration.

Selection
Since we have no worldwide representative group in place, this idea was presented in Seattle to the planning group for the next International Leadership Conference. The idea seemed good to the 33 brothers who were from most geographical areas of the world. After some discussion and much prayer, 9 brothers were selected to serve on a group to gather input for a brotherhood cooperation proposal. These men were selected by the simple qualifications of: servants who were full of the Spirit and wisdom (Acts 6:3); who hold the deep truths of the faith (1 Timothy 3:9); have been tested and proven faithful (1 Timothy 3:10); are advocates of a cooperative effort (Ephesians 4:1-3); have no selfish ambition (James 3:13-16); have gifts needed for this task (1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12); desire to serve in this group; and have global relationships (2 Timothy 3:10)

The 33 worldwide conference planning members spent a night in prayer and then selected the following brothers by secret ballot, commending them to the fellowship to serve as the Cooperation Proposal Group:

Andy Fleming, Missions Evangelist, Middle East and Eurasia
Mike Fontenot, Evangelist and Elder, Hampton Roads, Virginia
Scott Green, Evangelist, Seattle, Washington
Philip Lam, Evangelist, Hong Kong, China
John Louis, Evangelist, Singapore, Southeast Asia
Sam Powell, Evangelist and Elder, New York, New York
Steve Staten, Evangelist and Teacher, Chicago, Illinois
Mike Taliaferro, Evangelist, San Antonio, Texas and Africa
Bruce Williams, Evangelist and Elder, Los Angeles, California

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Tuesday, September 27, 2005

Kip's Pawns

Post by lulu1971/Laura on ICCDF.

List of ICOC Leaders aligned with Kip McKean
(also at kipmckean.com)

The following list has been compiled by reading through Kip's articles and the Portland website.

All of the people listed below have met with Kip in some capacity during the last 2 years. Kip has mentioned their names in sermons and articles. Some have also traveled to Portland to meet with Kip and preach to the church there.

The importance for a watch-list should be obvious, the more leaders Kip meets with the easier to see which churches in the ICOC will be reconstructed and/or considered still part of the ICOC.

Should any of these leaders wish to be removed from this list, please send us an email stating your reasons why you should be removed. These responses will be posted for public inspection.

webmaster@kipmckean.com

The opinions expressed on this page are those of the webmaster, and should be viewed as commentary.

Watch-List

Guillermo Adame, San Diego
Ben Arcellana
Phil Arsenault, Boston
Doug & Joyce Arthur, Baltimore
Wil & Rose Ashley, LA
Al & Gloria Baird, LA
Martin & Carmen Bentley, Orlando
Cory Blackwell, Atlanta
Hugh Borthwick
Danny & Gillianne Brisebois, Montreal
Chris Broom, Syracuse
Tom & Kelly Brown, LA
Ron Brumley, Seattle
John Causey, LA
Steve Chin
Dr. Ron Clark (From The Mainline Churches Of Christ)
Dessa & Brian Craig
Marc-Andre & Virginia Delalay, Montreal
Ron & Lavonia Drabot of Charlotte
Mike Fontenot, Virginia Beach
Marty Fuqua, LA
Anthony Galang, LA
Peter & Laura Garcia, LA
Scott & Lynne Green, Seattle
Bob & Pat Gempel, Philadelphia
Michael Hart, Curacao Island of the Caribbean
Dave & Angela Hooper
Lowell Hoover, Worcester, Massachusetts
Tim & Julie Huffman, Houston
Steve & Lisa Johnson, Savannah
Tim Kernan, Montreal
Frank & Erica Kim, Denver
Valdur & Irene Koha, Boston
Sam & Geri Laing, Athens, GA
Roger Lamb, Chicago
Cesar Lopez, Manila, Philippines
John Louis, Singapore
Kevin Mains, LA
Greg & Cathy Marutzki, Dallas/Ft Worth
Chip Mitchell, Boston
Raul & Lynda Moreno, Santiago, Chile
Ghislain & Debbie Normand, Quebec City
Dan & Susan Norman of SLC
Josue & Veronica Ortega, Mexico
Mike Patterson, Atlanta
Dave Peickert
JP & Karla Perkins, LA
John Porter, Greenville
Christian Ray
Darryl Reed, DC
Randy Scott
Sebastian Serra
Joe & Annie Silipo
Tony Singh, Chicago
Rob & Pam Skinner, Ashland, OR
Steve Staten, Chicago
Mike & Anne-Brigette Taliaferro, San Antonio
Mark Templer, New Delhi India
Salvador & Patricia Velazco, LA
Derick Vett
Bruce & Robin Williams, LA

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005

ICOC Breaking Session: Audio w/Transcript

From Zzzeta (Ian) on NYCOC. Transcript available - click on the title above.

I've just made soundfiles available online, which feature Al Baird and his cronies in the act of conducting a vicious breaking session against Dusty Wakefield, a former member.

To download the files, you need to install the Ares filesharing software from http://www.sofotex.com/Ares-download_L5779.html - it's not illegal to own this software or to download files with the owner's permission.

When you have the Ares client running, conduct a search for Audio files entitled "Dusty Wakefield"; there are three of them in all.

Don't try this if you only have a 56K dialup connection.

Ian.

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004

Lisa Johnson's Comments on the Abuses

She says she thought incidents of abuse were "isolated." Very similar to what the ICOC automatons say now.

Compare Lisa Johnson's quotes from 1990 vs. right after the HK letter (1990 taken from the rightcyberup website)

"Now this – I mean this sisters. I mean this, this is from the bottom of my heart. This is what I came to say today, to you. I believe that you have quit believing that grace will motivate people. You, personally. Take it personally. Take it individually. I believe that is one of the major problems in our movement, today. We must see it. I’ve seen the dangers, the abuses, the results of it, it is horrendous, it is sickening, it is frightening. We have got to trust that grace motivates people. We don’t need the things that we use to motivate people....

“I’m at the point where I feel like we just need to shut up and read the Bible. That it’s getting dangerous some of the things we tell each other, some of the things that we’ve done. I’m upset and I’m scared about it. I think that we have got to make a decision to repent. You know, the abuses are amazing – we begin to crystallize things – we’ve talked about it before, but sisters it’s time to change it.”

Lisa Johnson (World Sector Leader – Women), Crashing Through The Quitting Places: Discipleship, Women’s Retreat, Boston, audio tape, 1990. (about audio clips)

Now 13 years in the 2003 letter she claims she didn't know it was happening in NY (taken from her apology letter which can be found on the web).

"I'm sorry for believing (chokes) the New York church was different, that we only had isolated incidences of pain and hurt and abuse. I even thought that I was different..."

Both Lisa's and Steve's letters are here: http://www.newcovpub.com/icc/johnson_apology.htm

One could say that the first quote was in Boston and not NY (her own church) but I don't recall hearing much from her between 1990 to present about the church wide abuse issues. Did anyone else? She did see it back in 1990.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCDiscussion/messages?msg=12829.1

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Monday, February 09, 2004

Amusing 1988 Steve Johnson Quote: "I don’t want to own anything. I want all of my real estate to be invested in heaven."
Dave Anderson from RightCyber Up dug this up and posted this on the ICC DF.

In light of the pictures of Steve Johnson's home now posted on this Forum, I thought many of you would find this Steve Johnson quote quite interesting:

"If you walked by faith instead of financial security, that would be utterly shocking. It says we’re justified by our faith. See, I walk by faith in that area – I’m really blessed, I’ll just be candid with you guys – the church takes care of Lisa and me. We’re paid enough to live on, and we don’t go hungry. And so for us we’re constantly looking for ways to sacrifice so we can feel a little bit of pain. But the church is very, very kind. But I don’t know what it’s like to live by faith and not financial security. We don’t have a savings account. We don’t have CDs – either kind. I don’t think that’s wrong, to have a CD, but – I mean, all I’m saying is, I want the day I die not to own any property. I don’t want to own anything. I want all of my real estate to be invested in heaven. Now, I’m not saying it’s a sin if you own something – don’t get me wrong. But, what kind of safety nets are you holding out there? ‘If this doesn’t work, I’ve been smart. I didn’t give it all. Didn’t sell the ranch.’

"See, somebody falls away, ‘Boy, he bought the farm. You know, but shoot, he gave it all away. He fell – if he hadn’t given it all to the church, when he fell away, he’d have something now – boy, I’d won’t make that mistake.’ You say, ‘Well, I’d never say anything like that.’ I think a lot of you – you might not be planning your falling away retirement fund. But you’ve got it. I think it’d be shocking if you walked by faith, in your financial security."

Steve Johnson, Jesus Was Not a Nice Guy, New York City, audiotape, 1988.

A Software.com Yacht Party
Some interesting info from Gracie on ICC DF. Larry Salberg was a former Orthodox Jew who started doubting Jesus as an ICOC minister.

Just as a bit of interesting info: on the Software.com deal; the 'investors' had a party celebrating their earnings on a yacht with Steve Johnson.

I saw the pictures; the only ones there were those who had invested. Larry and Jennifer Salberg were among them.

peace,
Gracie

Boring, whiny Kip Article
My God Kip, shut up already.

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Saturday, February 07, 2004

An Insider's Open Letter to Steve Johnson - Ken Carlstedt
Read on. From ICC DF. Ken Carlstedt and his wife Jeri assisted the Johnsons for many years in the NYC church, and have seen more of the Johnsons' lifestyle than most people. Thus his words hold much weight not just in terms of its moral indignation but his personal knowledge of SJ's life.

Also referenced are SJ's deceitful comments about himself as a "poor preacher," not only to the church but also to a City Beat reporter. Full text article is included.

After two decades of amassing a fortune while leading the New York Church of Christ, Steve Johnson is technically now a millionaire-- since the equity on his house alone is just shy of a million.

With the on-line heat coming down hard on Steve, he's about to hurriedly skip town with his loot to lead and direct the finances of an unsuspecting church in Savannah, Georgia.

In this atmosphere, insider Ken Carlstedt posted a powerful letter on one of the many threads discussing Steve's shady dealings and luxurious lifestyle.

The thread is called

Steve Johnson: 'My house is kinda junky.'

Ken Carlstedt was responding to an old newspaper article I dug out and posted. In this article, Steve Johnson slickly and deceptively claimed to be living a modest lifestyle, with no misappropriation of funds, etc.

Ken's letter was/is so powerful and credible in the way it calls Steve on his b.s.---i.e. the letter's damaging truth comes from a high-up insider/confidante of Steve Johnson's, not an oustide observer like myself.

As such, Ken's letter deserves a thread of its own. Here goes:

-------------------AN OPEN LETTER FROM KEN CARLSTEDT----------------
---------------------------TO STEVE JOHNSON-----------------------

Dear Steve J.,

This message is directly to you, not really a response to the poster.

Steve, do you understand the deception you practiced? If so, you have never confessed openly, so I will help you see it, again.

Let's keep it simple. 'When the impression you work hard to give is intended to cover up reality, that is called deception.'

Steve, you remember that you intentionally planted too many trees and shrubs in front of your house, and let things get overgrown, even with Buzz around who is an excellent gardener and had indeed done miraculous gardening at his house.

You did this specifically to make it look like a normal little house, or even a bit quirky and less than normal, that certainly wouldn't look like anything 'special' or 'lavish' from the front. You worked hard to create that impression.

You will remember that one of the things that pleased you about that particular house, back when we all moved to Rockland together in the early and mid-1990's, was that it had an appearance from the front as a modest little house. You and Lisa were glad to find a house that 'looked small from the street' because you believed this would help shield you and your family from the questions that were coming up about the apartment on 98th street, the lavish decorations provided for you mostly free of charge from you know who, the 'intricate' but probably fully legal (since minor shadings of the truth are rarely prosecutable) ways that you and he financed it, etc.

'You dreaded those questions then as you are dreading the questions in the past year. Don't you see the pattern here? What does it mean when someone gets defensive? Remind yourself of your own teachings, and heal thyself.

Steve, you do remember that in close proximity to the time you were on the phone giving the interview referenced in this thread, there were stoneworkers, construction people, cement pourers, fireplace experts, and other kinds of work being done, on the back of the house, out of site from the street. Or, at least, you were well into the planning stages of how to put your investment gains into your house.

You need to be in touch with reality enough to remember that these home improvements cost you in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do we need to name names, and quote prices paid, to help you remember?

Steve, why are you willing to give the impression of running and hiding out? Could it be that you ARE running and hiding out again, without admitting this even to yourself?

Steve, please come forward openly and publicly, as you committed personally to me that you would do, about one year ago almost to this day, in my basement, about everything.

At the very least, if you can't bring yourself to come clean about everything, then come clean about these specific issues. Open up publicly about the improvements you made to your home and the money you used to make them. Give all the details, don't hold anything back. You see, when you are a public leader accepting public money as pay (church members are the public in this case), then the public does indeed have a right to know your finances, especially given the clear impression of impropriety.

Do you understand there is a clear impression of impropriety here? You need to, if you don't. It doesn't matter that some of your best friends are telling you to not worry about it. You need to ignore them and do the right thing.

More than that: 'When the impression you are working hard to give is intended to cover up reality, that is called deception.'

You will likely loose your soul if you continue refusing to come clean. Whatever you do or don't do, I will pray that God will be merciful to you, but my hope for you is not strong if you persist. You know the right thing to do and have refused to do it, wreaking havoc around you, exactly and precisely as we discussed a year ago.

Steve, I am not persecuting you. You are simply in need of coming clean. You and I both know it, and so many others who know you well know it. Telling you that truth is the best thing I can do for you.

Summarize it for yourself, it may be easier to see that way. Say it to yourself: 'I was a minister in a rapidly growing, dynamic, financially-surging organization. Lots and lots of perks came my way because of my position in the organization and because of the way I was discipled, and chose to follow, to handle people around me in that position.'

Steve, just come clean about all this, it's so simple. Perhaps most people could still forgive you, although I can speak for no one but myself.

Lots of love,

Ken

________________________________________________________________

Here's a link to Ken's letter in the context of the thread:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages/?msg=10358.3

Here's a link to the initial post Ken was responding to:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages/?msg=10358.1

Finally, here's a transcript of that initial post:

________________________________________________________________

STEVE JOHNSON: My house is kind of junky.

... or so he put it to a reporter in 2000 while defending his ownership of the house currently being discussed on the forum———the fireplace in-the-bathroom digs now featured in photos being viewed on the forum.

It's from an article I dug out of the TOLC files.

In the same article, Steve Johnson also plays the role of the poor preacher with other comments:

1) Regarding his unimpressive cars———one that he's forced to share with his father-in-law; regarding other car, Steve sheepishly describes it this way:

It will go fast... when it's running.

2) Regarding the home itself: he bought it for only $123,000, and that was with help from my father-in-law;

3) Regarding his salary, he refuses to discuss it. Instead he ducks the question with the glib comeback, If I ever get rich, it won't be because of the church. It'll be because I won the lottery.

4) Regarding the uncomfortable questions being put to him over the phone, Steve jokingly compares himself to Jesus and the reporter to one of Jesus' crucifiers. Steve tell the reporter to hold on to the phone\ while he gets the reporter some more nails to crucify me with.
________________________________________________________________

TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN WORDS COMING BACK TO HAUNT YOU!!!

It's a classic

Here's the link:

http://www.tolc.org/nybeat.htm

Here's an excerpt:

CITY BEAT Reporter: (Steve Johnson) will get serious when talk turns to faith, or to allegations that he and other leaders in the church——— where weekly tithing is required———lead lavish lifestyles.

For several years, Johnson lived in a three-bedroom, 2,200-square foot condo on W. 98th St. that today would probably fetch more than $1 million. But Johnson said he never owned the apartment and moved out several years ago after the owner, a friend, 'went belly up in the real estate market and had to sell.'

Johnson bought a four-bedroom house in West Nyack, Rockland County, for a reported $123,000 with help from his father-in-law, he said. 'It's kind of junky,' said Johnson, an assertion not disproved by photographs. (Those are photos OF THE OUTSIDE, during the FALL OF 2000... DUDE)

Last week, workers could be seen repairing water damage to the two-story home. Outside were parked the three cars registered to Johnson: 1997 Ford Expedition, a 1975 pickup truck that Johnson said he shares with his father-in-law, and a 1989 Ford Mustang that Johnson said 'will go fast, when it's running.'

When asked, Johnson refused to detail his salary. But he did give this assurance: 'If I ever get rich, it won't be because of the church. It'll be because I won the lottery.'

RELEVANT HISTORICAL LINKS:
Leadership Lifestyles

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Monday, January 26, 2004

NYCOC Financials: More Evidence of Their Greed.

Out for all to see. Look at the numbers carefully - D&T declares the financial statements present the full picture fairly.

Note the Benevolence numbers:
Revenues for Benevolence, page 3: $661,485
Expenses for Benevolence, page 9: $ 92,540


That's $568,945 that went into their pockets. That could have gone to single moms, people in genuine need. Not to mention the many who were literally starving to pay tithe.

From icocnews.com:



The New York City Church of Christ 2002 Audited Financial Statements are now available. The audit was performed by Deloitte & Touche, and the statements can be viewed by clicking on the link provided.


ICC DF and NYCOC both have discussions on this topic.

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Wednesday, October 29, 2003

Henry Kriete, Is the ICOC a cult?

Henry Kriete stated his current belief to that question this past weekend in NYC. Following is a transcription of his belief, with some introduction, from the Saturday afternoon meeting with the New York Christian church.

-----------------------

Intro

I'm not a spokesperson. I know a little bit of what’s going on. I’m just trying to get my own life together and get help where I can. Trying to work my salvation with fear & trembling. And I’ll do the best I can here. I may change my answers a week from now (laughter), no I’m serious – I am in major transition right now.

I’m getting emails like, do you think the ICOC is a cult? I’m getting all of them. And you know it’s some things like “I waver,” some are like “yeah,” some are “I don’t think so,” some are “I don’t want to have anything to do with it anymore because I fear I would be endorsing,” I don’t believe with all my heart and feel that they are trying.” I’m just in one of those places. So I’m going to go ahead and start with the most emotionally loaded question, Do you believe the ICOC is a cult?

Answer

Let me explain – well I wrote a little letter to Heather. I don’t know who Heather is. Is she here yet? Maybe she isn’t. But she asked me that question. And I’ll tell you where I’m at right now, okay. Not to be evasive, number 1 – if you were a cult leader, it’s very hard to see you say - like saying to a fish in the water, do you swim in the water? No? Agree, yeah! It’s a word you don’t find in the NT. But a word you do find is “sect,” false prophet, arrogance, leaders losing connection with the head, douse, God is putting out the church, you find that stuff.

Here’s how I would answer that. I think – you got a big meeting to help me out here – I think [there are in the ICC?], these are systemic sins. And they’re a struggling group. But I also believe that it did affect the different churches and leaders to various degrees. Everybody was affected. There are some leaders I would now say, man they are Cult Leaders. And [in contrast] there are some places I’ve been like in India, some places in Africa, Harrisburg, Virginia, and more, but not a lot. We’ve never been told this is what you have to preach, but there’s a controlling nature, which you know, there’s a culture of deceit, which you know about, there’s abuse, totalitarianism, to different degrees.

I would say that the ICOC is a sect with a lot of very cult-like tendencies, especially some places. I would never be commanded, “This is what you’ve got to preach and teach.” I can’t ever remember ever being given that – “this is what you have to preach and teach,” in terms of theology, in terms of [prejudice?]. But the culture of control that you know about –invasiveness, money, bad theology – that’s prevalent as all of us know. But I think the ICOC was infested, infected, with abberational theology.

The one I am burdened with, that I struggle with all the time is, “Are there any brothers and sisters there?” Sure. You guys became Christians in the ICOC. And I go, no matter how lukewarm in [Thessalonica?] or worldly they were in Corinth or legalistic in Galatia, the converts themselves must be going “well, Amen, through all this junk – I’ve found Christ. Why it’s so difficult for me ( and you don’t think it should be difficult) is,
I truly believe with all my heart that there is only one true church. Not like “we’re the true church” not that way, but there is one body, one church. And, like it or not, accept it or not, admit or not, if you’re a Christian, you’re a part of it. Among that family there’s aberrations, there’s wickedness. It’s like you have a family with 13 kids. One becomes a murderer, one’s a teacher, one’s a banker, one’s this, one’s a cult leader. These are your kids!

And this is my struggle right now, it really is. Because people want me to just absolutely, “you cannot associate with the ICOC anymore, in any way, shape or form.” I’m just not there yet. I know some of you are - “I am done, period!” But I feel like there are Christians.

And I think there are leaders that are completely unrepented. I think New York is a fiasco, and I support your decision, I respect it. In other places, I feel there are Christians…. There are some churches I think still guilty that have renounced the ICOC. You know what I mean? But it’s like, let’s say in Vancouver – we didn’t sign an affiliation agreement. In fact, if we did, I would have been gone. I will no longer be a part of that. The leader has declared his intents to the ICOC to go to Dallas. No one is over us, the money is not going nowhere.

Some people don’t think that’s enough. I mean that’s – now what they should they do in Vancouver, what if the whole church is really trying to change? I think some are doing it. I think Salt Lake. Others, no. I wouldn’t go to San Francisco and I certainly done with that. I think the ICOC is abberational, is just severely lacking repentance. Those who have light and don’t act on them, you’re under the curse of God. But I do think people have to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling.

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Friday, October 24, 2003

Will the Leaders Ever Understand How Cruel They Were?


You reap what you sow. A response to a former WML who wrote about returning to the secular world.

This is one of the most powerful posts I've read: about a leader who writes about her realizations, about returning to a normal working life and learning how "privileged," and Cruel, her life was as an ICOC minister. It was not the sacrifice that she believed it was.


I wonder how many of these leaders now, among those who are scrambling to keep their salaries and benefits, who are crushed with their own self pity over what has "happened," can ever come to a full understanding of the "sins," the injustice, the evil they had ultimately perpetrated.


I really believe these people live the grand delusion. I was talking with a friend who said that Summer McKean had a "nervous breakdown." Some members had accused her of racism (my friend said she believed Summer to be more elitist, than racist). Well, no wonder. The woman had been raised to believe this illusory, insane life was right, was good, was sacrificial. People who have never had a "pre-ICC" life, and fully embraced the church's system - how lost! A person who was cruel, who deserves all the enemies in the world. How dare she have any pity for herself. I sure would not want to be in her shoes. But how can you deny the injustice in her life as well?


It takes a person with incredibly strong character, backbone, and conscience - not in the ICC way but in the truest way - to resist this brainwashing and do what is right. Even more when you are raised in the church. Obviously Summer did not have this. I admire the fact that Olivia had the backbone to eventually leave, though I know it was difficult for her.


I have to say, so many people lose in this situation. The leaders who are still comfortable do not suffer now, but I am certain their reward for their cruelty - the wrath of "God" or whoever it is - is not finished, is coming to them, and I do not feel any pity for them.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6122.92 "Why Leaders Must Get Out"

The original post:

Letter from long-time annonymous former staff person:


As background in case you don't know me - I was baptized in XXX in
l9XX, moved to XXX on the mission team in XX, worked as a XXXX for XXX, then went into the ministry at XX years old. My husband and I married in XX, and we moved wherever we were asked (more times than I can count), and sold everything to move Overseas for XX years before returning to the U.S. and coming to back to U.S.


We resigned from the ministry after over many years. I felt so much pressure to produce numbers, look a certain way, dress a certain way, have a beautiful home, make the stage at church beautiful, have beautiful people singing on stage, etc. - in short, a lot of emphasis on all the wrong things, but I didn't realize it at the time.


Having been in the ministry for a long time, and now having worked in
secular jobs for over XX years, I feel I have a unique perspective. I had no idea while I was in the ministry how out of touch I was with what "real" or "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives were.


I don't think anyone who has been in the ministry for years, especially if they went into the ministry straight out of college and never worked, can really grasp this until you've experienced it. I cannot emphasize enough to not underestimate how difficult it is to change the way you have thought when you have been in the ministry for years & years.


I hadn't taught in the Sunday school program since l983, although I had counselled (and corrected and rebuked) people on their attitudes about teaching. I had no idea what it was like when Wednesday night classes ran late, and what it was like to try to pick up the pieces of 2 tired children on Thursday morning at 6:45 trying to get them to school.


After only my first week working at the Medical Center as a XX for 12 hour shifts, the realization hit me how demanding I had thought my schedule was when I was on staff - now every day was much more intense than that staff meeting Tuesday as I went to work, tried to cook dinner before I left in the morning, arranged childcare for my children, etc. I was used to always being right, always having my opinion be the right one, telling people what to do all day long, and thinking I always knew better.


After resigning, it was the best thing that ever happened to us to stay where we had led (not go somewhere else, and certainly not to go somewhere else and accept another ministry job! that certainly wouldn't fit the definition of resignation) and learn the MANY lessons that we needed to learn. It was humbling and difficult to be on the other side of the pulpit, but you get a different, and very valuable view from there.


It's hard to explain the mindset that occurs when you have been in the
ministry for a long time. I really thought that being in the ministry was the only thing worth doing, that only the "best" people could do it, and so I looked down on everyone else for not being "sharp" enough to be in the ministry.


I was used to always being right, making judgements about big, little and totally unimportant things and expecting the people around me to do things my way, always having people help me with my responsibilities in life, being able to delegate anything I didn't want to do, having babysitters always readily available, using people to get my goals accomplished and make me look good (although at the time I thought it was sincere and best for them), etc. The pride and arrogance were overwhelming.


It has taken years to understand that no one else in the church has this carte blanche lifestyle. (We could sure use some of those babysitters now!!)


Recently, a couple we are close to came to us asking for a short term loan to be able to buy their child glasses. The husband has a full time job and a masters degree and the wife works part time. It hit me this is how most of the middle class in the United States lives - one thing goes wrong (a broken transmission, needing new glasses, an unexpected medical bill) and you are unable to meet your financial obligations. When you're in the ministry, all of your needs are met: medical insurance (even co-pays), mileage allowances for travel, expense account allowances for housing and entertainment, and so you are shielded from this kind of financial pressure.


So we asked people to be sacrificial, when really we weren't experiencing any real kind of financial sacrifice ourselves, as all of our needs were always met.


Myself, as well as all of the "old-timers" who have been in the ministry for years, have built a crumbling mess. It has not been easy to "fix" me (especially my thinking) and even after 4 years out of the ministry, I'm still not "fixed" because I have been trained in elitism, arrogance, harshness, judgementalism, and pride.


I am extremely concerned about the rushing stampede to hire Sam Laing to come to Athens. It is obvious the many strengths that Sam and Geri have to offer - their marriage, family, counselling ability, etc. But, from my viewpoint after having been in the ministry for over 1/3 of my life, having had 32 years in the ministry is not a plus, but a serious minus.


I have nothing against Sam & Geri Laing, but I have seen the mindset, priviledges, lifestyle and thought process that a leader on his "level" or "tier" in the ICOC system has been steeped in. I also believe many of these mindsets will not even be obvious to Sam for a long time, because we have been thoroughly indoctrinated in that way of thinking.


I believe that Sam is sincere in wanting to repent and that the Triangle church in many ways wasn't as oppressive or controlling as some of the ICOC churches have been, yet it will take time, and many painful conversations, to learn a new way of thinking and dealing with people. Leaving a church after resigning to come somewhere else without staying and learning the lessons there is a red flag to me too. I don't even think it is possible to know what those lessons might even be except with the passing of time.


I haven't seen any evidence of repentance, or even openness, about finances or leaders lifestyles. And although it hasn't been said, I wonder if this rush to hire the Laings has a lot to do with when their severance package expires. I don't want the church to make any huge decisions rashly and without everyone feeling great about the decisions, especially because of money issues.


http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6122.1 "Why Leaders Must Get Out"

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Monday, October 20, 2003

Fall of the Paris Church

They've officially shut their doors...

[ So Paris church of Christ is gone too? Sounds like ICOC is crumbling in many countries. ]


Yes. Sorry for the short, apocalyptic sentence.

It was the first thought I had when I got back from the association meeting, I had some tears also because I was hoping for that to happend since 6 months (the HK letter). It's symbolic for us and the dissolution might help christians to "turn the page" (it's a french expression, hope you understand).

Yesterday, we vote the dissolution of the Paris Church of Christ (PCC). For more details :

We used to be about 550 members but only 100 members were here to vote, most of the others were to much hurt about what happend in the PCC.
Between the 100 members, 66% vote YES, 34% vote NO for the dissolution.
But if you take in account the hundreds who left the church services, you imagine that it's not 66% but around 90% that don't want to here about the PCC anymore (but the most still want to love God).

In Paris, things happend very sadly, very bad. Since HK letter, evangelists tried to express their sorry and compassion but it did not reach the heart of the christians. There were so less expression of deep sorrows and compassion from the staff that some disciples decide to handle the direction of the church, leaded by an ex-evangelist who was fast to understand what happend, and call evangelistes to repent. But other mature brothers tried to stop him affraid of a new Kip McKean with his standard of repentance. Satan worked a lot in this mess, a lot of bad thoughts one to each other and a explosion happend. 2/3 of the christians didn't want to come anymore, disgusedt with how the things where going on. Christians were giving less and less for the contribution, we had to fire all the evangelist one by one but it looks like more a hunt than a lay off, truely saying. Finaly, the main evangelists left Paris to return to their cities where they used to live, or always wanted to live. It looks like thief going away with our contributions or asking for politicum asylum, living the PCC association with debt (hopefully the boston christians gave contribution to help us, thank you ! a letter should come from Paris to tell you). We don't know where to begin, where to go, what to think.

Randy McKean sayed he was ready to come to express his heart only if we invite him. I think it's to soon for us to see boston leader to come.
We have been so much under hierarchical dominated authority. What about Boston (who planted the PCC), did leaders had true sorrows and compassion toward the christians ? are the most christians behind them ? is the church led by elders or evangelists ?

Everybody sinned and today, no leader had been able to show the best attitude to have in this situation here in Paris.

Forgive us God. Ghooosty

http://forums.delphiforums.com/iccdiscussion/messages?msg=7332.64 "Paris Church of Christ"


News about the Dallas Leadership Conference

Better late than never! To be posted in the next day or so... Stay tuned.

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