Wednesday, February 28, 2007

Exercise

An innocent discussion on health and exercise mentions a certain former WML and American Idol aspirant's boob job while working for the church, along with the usual rant about never having enough time to work out or do anything for your health while in the ICOC... but wasn't McKean a big "jock"? I guess only ministry people can take care of themselves, including their boob size!!

(also mentions the only weight-loss program that's ever worked for me, and we're not talking about Weigh Down...)

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Sunday, May 21, 2006

The rich "relatives" paying Mckean kids' Harvard tuition

Posted by WildJen. The Stanbeck book description and review can be seen here.

As per another thread......here is a footnote from Foster Stanback's book INTO ALL NATIONS discussing who the "rich relatives" were......

Page 119 - footnote 21:

"The bill for the children's Ivy-League grooming ran into tens of thousands of dollars, which McKean solicited from wealthy members of the church. Although various individuals provided such support, some began to feel a considerable degree of cognitive dissonance at the idea of aiding McKean's children without giving equal consideration to other worthy candidates. In such cases McKean did not hesitate to challenge them to develop the conviction that helping his family was part of their God-given role. When his youngest son began struggling spiritually at his private school where he had no Christian friends, McKean solicited funds from a wealthy family to pay for a scholarship ($10,000 of a total of $16,000 tuition bill) so that another Christian teenager could attend the school as well. They boy's parents were asked to move an hour north to an affluent neighborhood in W. Los Angeles close to the school. The church hired the boy's mother as a ministry "intern" to help the family afford the increased living expenses. McKean regularly approached his wealthy patrons in the church for donations of thousands of dollars to cover tennis-related expenses, such as lessons, equipment, tournament fees, and travel costs. The children's Harvard tuition was pad for by a dot-com entrepreneur who struck it rich during the internet boom of the late 1990s."

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Monday, April 17, 2006

Letter from a Leader (2003)

This is quite an old letter but it still applies today. See also the insightful reply below the letter.

Letter posted by RoseGvr.
Recent response (4/2006) by Chava123



As background in case you don't know me - I was baptized in XXX in
l9XX, moved to XXX on the mission team in XX, worked as a XXXX for XXX, then went into the ministry at XX years old. My husband and I married in XX, and we moved wherever we were asked (more times than I can count), and sold everything to move Overseas for XX years before returning to the U.S. and coming to back to U.S.

We resigned from the ministry after over many years. I felt so much pressure to produce numbers, look a certain way, dress a certain way, have a beautiful home, make the stage at church beautiful, have beautiful people singing on stage, etc. - in short, a lot of emphasis on all the wrong things, but I didn't realize it at the time.

Having been in the ministry for a long time, and now having worked in
secular jobs for over XX years, I feel I have a unique perspective. I had no idea while I was in the ministry how out of touch I was with what "real" or "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives were.

I don't think anyone who has been in the ministry for years, especially if they went into the ministry straight out of college and never worked, can really grasp this until you've experienced it. I cannot emphasize enough to not underestimate how difficult it is to change the way you have thought when you have been in the ministry for years & years.

I hadn't taught in the Sunday school program since l983, although I had counselled (and corrected and rebuked) people on their attitudes about teaching. I had no idea what it was like when Wednesday night classes ran late, and what it was like to try to pick up the pieces of 2 tired children on Thursday morning at 6:45 trying to get them to school.

After only my first week working at the Medical Center as a XX for 12 hour shifts, the realization hit me how demanding I had thought my schedule was when I was on staff - now every day was much more intense than that staff meeting Tuesday as I went to work, tried to cook dinner before I left in the morning, arranged childcare for my children, etc. I was used to always being right, always having my opinion be the right one, telling people what to do all day long, and thinking I always knew better.

After resigning, it was the best thing that ever happened to us to stay where we had led (not go somewhere else, and certainly not to go somewhere else and accept another ministry job! that certainly wouldn't fit the definition of resignation) and learn the MANY lessons that we needed to learn. It was humbling and difficult to be on the other side of the pulpit, but you get a different, and very valuable view from there.

It's hard to explain the mindset that occurs when you have been in the
ministry for a long time. I really thought that being in the ministry was the only thing worth doing, that only the "best" people could do it, and so I looked down on everyone else for not being "sharp" enough to be in the ministry.

I was used to always being right, making judgements about big, little and totally unimportant things and expecting the people around me to do things my way, always having people help me with my responsibilities in life, being able to delegate anything I didn't want to do, having babysitters always readily available, using people to get my goals accomplished and make me look good (although at the time I thought it was sincere and best for them), etc. The pride and arrogance were overwhelming.

It has taken years to understand that no one else in the church has this carte blanche lifestyle. (We could sure use some of those babysitters now!!)

Recently, a couple we are close to came to us asking for a short term loan to be able to buy their child glasses. The husband has a full time job and a masters degree and the wife works part time. It hit me this is how most of the middle class in the United States lives - one thing goes wrong (a broken transmission, needing new glasses, an unexpected medical bill) and you are unable to meet your financial obligations. When you're in the ministry, all of your needs are met: medical insurance (even co-pays), mileage allowances for travel, expense account allowances for housing and entertainment, and so you are shielded from this kind of financial pressure.

So we asked people to be sacrificial, when really we weren't experiencing any real kind of financial sacrifice ourselves, as all of our needs were always met.

Myself, as well as all of the "old-timers" who have been in the ministry for years, have built a crumbling mess. It has not been easy to "fix" me (especially my thinking) and even after 4 years out of the ministry, I'm still not "fixed" because I have been trained in elitism, arrogance, harshness, judgementalism, and pride.

I am extremely concerned about the rushing stampede to hire Sam Laing to come to Athens. It is obvious the many strengths that Sam and Geri have to offer - their marriage, family, counselling ability, etc. But, from my viewpoint after having been in the ministry for over 1/3 of my life, having had 32 years in the ministry is not a plus, but a serious minus.

I have nothing against Sam & Geri Laing, but I have seen the mindset, priviledges, lifestyle and thought process that a leader on his "level" or "tier" in the ICOC system has been steeped in. I also believe many of these mindsets will not even be obvious to Sam for a long time, because we have been thoroughly indoctrinated in that way of thinking.

I believe that Sam is sincere in wanting to repent and that the Triangle church in many ways wasn't as oppressive or controlling as some of the ICOC churches have been, yet it will take time, and many painful conversations, to learn a new way of thinking and dealing with people. Leaving a church after resigning to come somewhere else without staying and learning the lessons there is a red flag to me too. I don't even think it is possible to know what those lessons might even be except with the passing of time.

I haven't seen any evidence of repentance, or even openness, about finances or leaders lifestyles. And although it hasn't been said, I wonder if this rush to hire the Laings has a lot to do with when their severance package expires. I don't want the church to make any huge decisions rashly and without everyone feeling great about the decisions, especially because of money issues.

---
As someone stated above the identity of the person was not carefully concealed. I knew eactly who it was after reading the first paragraph. If you were in the Athens church there is only one person who this could be.

While her humility seems genuine and I agree with a lot of what she says I think you have to look at the actions of the person. This WML is acting as if she had a major revelation and is truly humbled and sorry for her actions. But you have to look at her actions now.

Many people in the church here have a lot of feelings about her and her husband because while other leaders stood and and apoligized to the entire congragation, they did not. They left the church and many people here believe they owe them an apology. True they were not in the ministry at the time, but they were for years. For years they had been part of the emotional abuse that went on in the church. Often they were the ones that were being abusive. They never apoligized. I worked under her for years and was victim to her abuse. I have seen her several times since she has left the church and never once has she offered an apology or expressed any regret.

So while the letter sounds nice. I would still say she doesn't get it. She has no idea. It's not enough to write an anonymous letter to a website and expect that to make it all right.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005

Special Missions a Scam: Straight from the Horse's mouth

From WildJen on ICCDF.

Here it is, folks, straight from the horse's mouth. Andy Fleming, current administrator of Middle East World Sector, and member of the board of other ICOC corporations, admits that SMC funds in the past were considered "unrestricted" funds (although they were advertised as being for the specific purpose of missions). Fleming says that as much as 50% was funneled off to meet LOCAL administrative overhead in US Churches.

"The Middle East World Sector has provided financial information from 1995 forward and subsequently Andy Fleming, who currently oversees those funds, came and met with the Board to respond to our questions. In the course of reviewing this financial information and meeting with Andy we learned that between 1995 and 2002 monies sent to the Middle East World Sector were "Unrestricted" and only 50-55% was actually directly supporting foreign missions. In a letter from Andy to the San Diego Church of Christ dated October 29, 2005 he explains how the funds were used."

More analysis to follow. See his admission letter, along with documentation here.

http://www.icocinvestigation.com/mews.htm

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Tuesday, November 01, 2005

Pelham case - amended

The motion to dismiss was withdrawn! Check out the details. Posted by WildJen on ICCDF.

The Pelhams' have amended their original complaint.

Also posted are documents that were to be considered in the hearing that was scheduled for Friday.

The hearing scheduled for Friday has been cancelled because the defendants have withdrawn their motion to dismiss.

http://www.icocinvestigation.com/nashville.htm

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Friday, September 30, 2005

Response to Pelham Case

See the discussion here.

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Monday, October 11, 2004

Class action Lawsuit

There have been many people who've wanted to bring a lawsuit to the ICOC. Here is some helpful info.

Have you guys heard of or thought of doing a class action lawsuit for the emotional damage done by incompetent leaders?? I can think of several people in my city who might be interested in filing one against the leader here who has abused many people. If one lawsuit succeeded it could open the door for so many more. This could be the way to get these people to stop placing idiots in leadership. I find the lay leaders to be the most abusive.
When people are told to do things or their salvation/church membership could be affected that is very stressful(when it goes beyond scriptural authority) I was dropped from membership with no warning and slandered/marked. Do you think cases like these could win? maybe even get back previous missions contributions in the thousands, since finding funds were mis-appropriated?? I hear Russ Ewell lived in a mansion bought with church/my money.
---------------------------
Answer from Jack Pelham:
---------------------------
I've been working on this for well over a year now. I've contacted about 10 different large firms, each of whom rejected the case. From what I gather, they do not think there will be enough money found in the ICC to warrant their time. (Typically, a firm will make %30 or more of the awards from such a case.) I've also spoken to several attorneys who are NOT members of large firms, and all of whom tell me that such a case would take a very large firm to execute.

The way the ICC has organized itself is such that there's a huge mound of inconvenience standing in the way of seeing the books. From the moral perspective, it's a no-brainer; morality demands that they show the books. But the LAW is another matter. From a legal perspective, it would take a huge amount of effort to make them open the books---that is, as the result of a lawsuit.

Now, having said all that, if someone were rich and could simply hire a firm, that would be different. (Most suits like this are done on contingency, whereby the attorneys get paid from the cash awards they manage to win.) But still, such a case could take several years.

In the mean time, however, there are more and more administrators who are leaving the ICC--more and more ministry staff, too---and so many of these saw and heard and did things about which their consciences are bothering them. It just figures that they'll start talking in the course of time, as they continue to figure out just how evil the system was. So these big time leaders can't hide forever. They're going to get bitten by their own snakes. It's pretty much inevitable; they just don't have enough cash coming in to bribe all these people, and the you're-going-to-hell pressure they put on people has a way of disappearing once someone has been gone from the church for a few months---so what can they do to KEEP people from talking?

The better solution in the meantime is to report your local congregation to your state government. Chances are that they were fraudulently collecting money as "contribution for the poor" but spending it instead on HOPE. This is illegal, yet it was the game plan all along, and it will probably even pop up in writing at some point, as it was a matter of formal policy for the churches.

What's at stake legally is whether ICOC and HOPE really are two different entities. I believe that they are NOT, yet they are acting as if they are. So once they get in trouble for this HOPE fraud in a few states, the IRS will be much more willing to conduct a thorough audit on this issue. (Remember, we were told all along that HOPE is "separate" from the church, but even Kip called it a "separate arm OF the church", and appointed Bob Gempel as the "World Sector Leader" over HOPE. And HOPE helped itself to monies collected from the public at church meetings all the time. So they were definitely behaving as if they were the church itself.

Whether we are able to win any legal victories or not in this matter, it is very important to understand that God will avenge these sins. These people are twice dead. This will surely not escape the infinite righteousness of God's judment. Already, these people are going from bad to worse, and are suffering in their own lives as they are wasting away in depression, anger, bitterness, frustration and fear. And they continue to drive from them the kinds of people who are thinking people and who make the best friends. All they have left at this point are the "yes men" who would rather be praised by a "leader" than by God.

If you want to go after it, I'd suggest reporting them to your state authorities. And here's another idea. If you're still in the city where the church is, write them a letter asking to see all the books. When they deny your request, mount signs to your car saying, "The _________ Church of Christ Won't Open Its Books", and drive around with that for a year or so. (I live two hours away from the Nashville Church, or I'd have been doing this already.) If you do this, you'll be interviewed by the news people, and it'll cause a lot of attention--and it's completely TRUE. This means they couldn't win a lawsuit against you for doing it. And if they were stupid enough to try suing you over it, that means you get a chance to tell a judge and a jury and the press about what they are doing there in your town.

After spending 17 years helping to build it, I have been quite dedicated to UN-building the ICC. However, the further I get from it, the more I realize that it's just another in a sea of churches that are quite screwed up. The same dullness I find in ICC members is found in the members of so many different denominations that it's not funny. You try to get them to think through an issue, but they just don't seem to be able to do that kind of thinking. They basically figure that if it were that important, their leaders would tell them about it. That kind of thinking is not an ICC exclusive, unfortunately.

The ICC is storing up wrath for itself. It will not surprise me at any point to hear of terrible things being uncovered, of arrests being made, of 501(c)(3) status being revoked, etc.---or even of suicides by washed-up leaders and their lieutenants. Nor will it surprise me if God lets them keeping playing their game for another 100 years. Neither would mean that God is unjust---but both would prove that the ICC is unjust.

There is not one possible explanation for hiding their books that makes them seem righteous. In fact, the best stab they can take at it is that it would "make people struggle" if they saw the books. But that has been quite effective since ICC members are quite willing to obey the boundaries set for them in their thinking. If they are TOLD they will "struggle", then they assume it must be so--and they never once question why a church should be doing things to make Christians "struggle" in the first place.

Pity the poor "disciple". And contrast that with true Christianity, in which each person would know God for himself. (Jeremiah 31:31-35, John 17:3, Matthew 7:21ff.) The ICC is just another example of a group of people trying to be mediators between their underlings and God. And why would anybody want such a role when God specifically said the church wouldn't be this way? For pride and for money. Pride and money are the gods of the ICC. Jesus they do not know. How COULD they know him and keep secrets? It's a very simple proposition that people who know Jesus imitate Jesus and don't feel comfortable neglecting to imitate him.

Love God = Open the books.

Love God = Ask to see the books.

Stay ignorant = Don't know God

Keep hiding the books = Don't know God.

My son is 17 months old. He ALREADY knows when he's wandering out in the (fenceless) front yard, to keep an eye on Daddy to be sure it's OK to go where he's going. Why can a toddler who can't even talk yet know how to behave this way, when a church full of grown ups can't seem to figure out that it's supposed to be accountable to Jesus? They quit looking to Jesus for approval a LONG time ago--and many of them have never looked to him at all, but to the "church" instead.

Do what you can, but rest assured that God will deal with these people. Whether he helps you succeed or not, it won't change the score at the end of the game. There is no way the ICC will prevail in the Judgment. Its members will be sorely disappointed to have invested their lives in a lie, and to end up not having known God for themselves, even though they were "members" of the "best" church.

Oh, that they would listen. But even their leaders like urcrazy03 cannot seem to muster a response to a godly rebuke. They love their money more than they love the truth.

Jack

[ Jack's sig:
When I left the ICC 2 years ago, I wrote a book about how the church is sinning against scripture. http://www.reveal.org/library/stories/people/jpelham.html And I participated extensively on this forum for the purpose of discussing doctrinal issues.

At this point, however, though I remain a Christian, I am participating here for the discussion of the FINANCIAL issues, which I have been investigating in earnest for over a year. Please do not mistake my focus as being innately unspiritual; I simply am not here to discuss spiritual matters at length. Also, please do not assume that whatever sharp comments you read from me here are coming out of the blue; many of these discussions involve conversants who have had ongoing dialogs. What may seem like an inordinantly sharp response may indeed be quite justified as part of an ongoing adversarial dialog.

None of what I am doing here would be necessary if only the ICC churches would open their books for independent audits. There is simply too much evidence of wrongdoing to be satisfied with their own say-so that they haven't broken the law. ]

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Monday, February 09, 2004

Amusing 1988 Steve Johnson Quote: "I don’t want to own anything. I want all of my real estate to be invested in heaven."
Dave Anderson from RightCyber Up dug this up and posted this on the ICC DF.

In light of the pictures of Steve Johnson's home now posted on this Forum, I thought many of you would find this Steve Johnson quote quite interesting:

"If you walked by faith instead of financial security, that would be utterly shocking. It says we’re justified by our faith. See, I walk by faith in that area – I’m really blessed, I’ll just be candid with you guys – the church takes care of Lisa and me. We’re paid enough to live on, and we don’t go hungry. And so for us we’re constantly looking for ways to sacrifice so we can feel a little bit of pain. But the church is very, very kind. But I don’t know what it’s like to live by faith and not financial security. We don’t have a savings account. We don’t have CDs – either kind. I don’t think that’s wrong, to have a CD, but – I mean, all I’m saying is, I want the day I die not to own any property. I don’t want to own anything. I want all of my real estate to be invested in heaven. Now, I’m not saying it’s a sin if you own something – don’t get me wrong. But, what kind of safety nets are you holding out there? ‘If this doesn’t work, I’ve been smart. I didn’t give it all. Didn’t sell the ranch.’

"See, somebody falls away, ‘Boy, he bought the farm. You know, but shoot, he gave it all away. He fell – if he hadn’t given it all to the church, when he fell away, he’d have something now – boy, I’d won’t make that mistake.’ You say, ‘Well, I’d never say anything like that.’ I think a lot of you – you might not be planning your falling away retirement fund. But you’ve got it. I think it’d be shocking if you walked by faith, in your financial security."

Steve Johnson, Jesus Was Not a Nice Guy, New York City, audiotape, 1988.

A Software.com Yacht Party
Some interesting info from Gracie on ICC DF. Larry Salberg was a former Orthodox Jew who started doubting Jesus as an ICOC minister.

Just as a bit of interesting info: on the Software.com deal; the 'investors' had a party celebrating their earnings on a yacht with Steve Johnson.

I saw the pictures; the only ones there were those who had invested. Larry and Jennifer Salberg were among them.

peace,
Gracie

Boring, whiny Kip Article
My God Kip, shut up already.

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Saturday, February 07, 2004

An Insider's Open Letter to Steve Johnson - Ken Carlstedt
Read on. From ICC DF. Ken Carlstedt and his wife Jeri assisted the Johnsons for many years in the NYC church, and have seen more of the Johnsons' lifestyle than most people. Thus his words hold much weight not just in terms of its moral indignation but his personal knowledge of SJ's life.

Also referenced are SJ's deceitful comments about himself as a "poor preacher," not only to the church but also to a City Beat reporter. Full text article is included.

After two decades of amassing a fortune while leading the New York Church of Christ, Steve Johnson is technically now a millionaire-- since the equity on his house alone is just shy of a million.

With the on-line heat coming down hard on Steve, he's about to hurriedly skip town with his loot to lead and direct the finances of an unsuspecting church in Savannah, Georgia.

In this atmosphere, insider Ken Carlstedt posted a powerful letter on one of the many threads discussing Steve's shady dealings and luxurious lifestyle.

The thread is called

Steve Johnson: 'My house is kinda junky.'

Ken Carlstedt was responding to an old newspaper article I dug out and posted. In this article, Steve Johnson slickly and deceptively claimed to be living a modest lifestyle, with no misappropriation of funds, etc.

Ken's letter was/is so powerful and credible in the way it calls Steve on his b.s.---i.e. the letter's damaging truth comes from a high-up insider/confidante of Steve Johnson's, not an oustide observer like myself.

As such, Ken's letter deserves a thread of its own. Here goes:

-------------------AN OPEN LETTER FROM KEN CARLSTEDT----------------
---------------------------TO STEVE JOHNSON-----------------------

Dear Steve J.,

This message is directly to you, not really a response to the poster.

Steve, do you understand the deception you practiced? If so, you have never confessed openly, so I will help you see it, again.

Let's keep it simple. 'When the impression you work hard to give is intended to cover up reality, that is called deception.'

Steve, you remember that you intentionally planted too many trees and shrubs in front of your house, and let things get overgrown, even with Buzz around who is an excellent gardener and had indeed done miraculous gardening at his house.

You did this specifically to make it look like a normal little house, or even a bit quirky and less than normal, that certainly wouldn't look like anything 'special' or 'lavish' from the front. You worked hard to create that impression.

You will remember that one of the things that pleased you about that particular house, back when we all moved to Rockland together in the early and mid-1990's, was that it had an appearance from the front as a modest little house. You and Lisa were glad to find a house that 'looked small from the street' because you believed this would help shield you and your family from the questions that were coming up about the apartment on 98th street, the lavish decorations provided for you mostly free of charge from you know who, the 'intricate' but probably fully legal (since minor shadings of the truth are rarely prosecutable) ways that you and he financed it, etc.

'You dreaded those questions then as you are dreading the questions in the past year. Don't you see the pattern here? What does it mean when someone gets defensive? Remind yourself of your own teachings, and heal thyself.

Steve, you do remember that in close proximity to the time you were on the phone giving the interview referenced in this thread, there were stoneworkers, construction people, cement pourers, fireplace experts, and other kinds of work being done, on the back of the house, out of site from the street. Or, at least, you were well into the planning stages of how to put your investment gains into your house.

You need to be in touch with reality enough to remember that these home improvements cost you in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do we need to name names, and quote prices paid, to help you remember?

Steve, why are you willing to give the impression of running and hiding out? Could it be that you ARE running and hiding out again, without admitting this even to yourself?

Steve, please come forward openly and publicly, as you committed personally to me that you would do, about one year ago almost to this day, in my basement, about everything.

At the very least, if you can't bring yourself to come clean about everything, then come clean about these specific issues. Open up publicly about the improvements you made to your home and the money you used to make them. Give all the details, don't hold anything back. You see, when you are a public leader accepting public money as pay (church members are the public in this case), then the public does indeed have a right to know your finances, especially given the clear impression of impropriety.

Do you understand there is a clear impression of impropriety here? You need to, if you don't. It doesn't matter that some of your best friends are telling you to not worry about it. You need to ignore them and do the right thing.

More than that: 'When the impression you are working hard to give is intended to cover up reality, that is called deception.'

You will likely loose your soul if you continue refusing to come clean. Whatever you do or don't do, I will pray that God will be merciful to you, but my hope for you is not strong if you persist. You know the right thing to do and have refused to do it, wreaking havoc around you, exactly and precisely as we discussed a year ago.

Steve, I am not persecuting you. You are simply in need of coming clean. You and I both know it, and so many others who know you well know it. Telling you that truth is the best thing I can do for you.

Summarize it for yourself, it may be easier to see that way. Say it to yourself: 'I was a minister in a rapidly growing, dynamic, financially-surging organization. Lots and lots of perks came my way because of my position in the organization and because of the way I was discipled, and chose to follow, to handle people around me in that position.'

Steve, just come clean about all this, it's so simple. Perhaps most people could still forgive you, although I can speak for no one but myself.

Lots of love,

Ken

________________________________________________________________

Here's a link to Ken's letter in the context of the thread:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages/?msg=10358.3

Here's a link to the initial post Ken was responding to:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages/?msg=10358.1

Finally, here's a transcript of that initial post:

________________________________________________________________

STEVE JOHNSON: My house is kind of junky.

... or so he put it to a reporter in 2000 while defending his ownership of the house currently being discussed on the forum———the fireplace in-the-bathroom digs now featured in photos being viewed on the forum.

It's from an article I dug out of the TOLC files.

In the same article, Steve Johnson also plays the role of the poor preacher with other comments:

1) Regarding his unimpressive cars———one that he's forced to share with his father-in-law; regarding other car, Steve sheepishly describes it this way:

It will go fast... when it's running.

2) Regarding the home itself: he bought it for only $123,000, and that was with help from my father-in-law;

3) Regarding his salary, he refuses to discuss it. Instead he ducks the question with the glib comeback, If I ever get rich, it won't be because of the church. It'll be because I won the lottery.

4) Regarding the uncomfortable questions being put to him over the phone, Steve jokingly compares himself to Jesus and the reporter to one of Jesus' crucifiers. Steve tell the reporter to hold on to the phone\ while he gets the reporter some more nails to crucify me with.
________________________________________________________________

TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN WORDS COMING BACK TO HAUNT YOU!!!

It's a classic

Here's the link:

http://www.tolc.org/nybeat.htm

Here's an excerpt:

CITY BEAT Reporter: (Steve Johnson) will get serious when talk turns to faith, or to allegations that he and other leaders in the church——— where weekly tithing is required———lead lavish lifestyles.

For several years, Johnson lived in a three-bedroom, 2,200-square foot condo on W. 98th St. that today would probably fetch more than $1 million. But Johnson said he never owned the apartment and moved out several years ago after the owner, a friend, 'went belly up in the real estate market and had to sell.'

Johnson bought a four-bedroom house in West Nyack, Rockland County, for a reported $123,000 with help from his father-in-law, he said. 'It's kind of junky,' said Johnson, an assertion not disproved by photographs. (Those are photos OF THE OUTSIDE, during the FALL OF 2000... DUDE)

Last week, workers could be seen repairing water damage to the two-story home. Outside were parked the three cars registered to Johnson: 1997 Ford Expedition, a 1975 pickup truck that Johnson said he shares with his father-in-law, and a 1989 Ford Mustang that Johnson said 'will go fast, when it's running.'

When asked, Johnson refused to detail his salary. But he did give this assurance: 'If I ever get rich, it won't be because of the church. It'll be because I won the lottery.'

RELEVANT HISTORICAL LINKS:
Leadership Lifestyles

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Tuesday, February 03, 2004

The Famous Fireplace in Steve Johnson's Bathroom
Paid for by us who were suckers in the NYCOC. Paid for by the BENEVOLENCE funds. Click "more pictures" to see YOUR fireplace in the NYC lead evangelist's bathroom. It's selling for almost One Million, by the way... I'd like to get my damn tithe back!!

Steve Johnson's home

Steve Johnson's fireplace in the bathroom

Remember how people packed themselves into nasty small apartments with 10 roommates? So we could pay tithe? THIS is what we paid for. Remember single moms? This is where the money went that they DIDN'T receive.

It is truly Disgusting.

Nothing angers me more than this kind of greed and hypocrisy. EVERYONE should see these pictures.

Apparently SJ put a bunch of money from some shady thing at Software.com (one of the Boston ICOC Board of Directors was a Software.com VP) to pay for renovations for the place. Check out the NYCOC and ICC DF threads on the Software.com issue and the SJ House:

NYCOC: Steve Johnson's home on sale for $1M!

NYCOC: Steve Johnson House -- photos

ICC DF: Is this REALLY Steve Johnson's house?

ICC DF: PHOTOS OF STEVE JOHNSON'S HOUSE

Interesting ICOC Stats site
I added a new link for a web site called Icocstats.org. It's written by a "faithful" ICC member, and interestingly enough leaves out the 2003 stats. Does anyone have numbers for any church in 2003?

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Monday, January 26, 2004

NYCOC Financials: More Evidence of Their Greed.

Out for all to see. Look at the numbers carefully - D&T declares the financial statements present the full picture fairly.

Note the Benevolence numbers:
Revenues for Benevolence, page 3: $661,485
Expenses for Benevolence, page 9: $ 92,540


That's $568,945 that went into their pockets. That could have gone to single moms, people in genuine need. Not to mention the many who were literally starving to pay tithe.

From icocnews.com:



The New York City Church of Christ 2002 Audited Financial Statements are now available. The audit was performed by Deloitte & Touche, and the statements can be viewed by clicking on the link provided.


ICC DF and NYCOC both have discussions on this topic.

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Wednesday, October 29, 2003

Henry Kriete, Is the ICOC a cult?

Henry Kriete stated his current belief to that question this past weekend in NYC. Following is a transcription of his belief, with some introduction, from the Saturday afternoon meeting with the New York Christian church.

-----------------------

Intro

I'm not a spokesperson. I know a little bit of what’s going on. I’m just trying to get my own life together and get help where I can. Trying to work my salvation with fear & trembling. And I’ll do the best I can here. I may change my answers a week from now (laughter), no I’m serious – I am in major transition right now.

I’m getting emails like, do you think the ICOC is a cult? I’m getting all of them. And you know it’s some things like “I waver,” some are like “yeah,” some are “I don’t think so,” some are “I don’t want to have anything to do with it anymore because I fear I would be endorsing,” I don’t believe with all my heart and feel that they are trying.” I’m just in one of those places. So I’m going to go ahead and start with the most emotionally loaded question, Do you believe the ICOC is a cult?

Answer

Let me explain – well I wrote a little letter to Heather. I don’t know who Heather is. Is she here yet? Maybe she isn’t. But she asked me that question. And I’ll tell you where I’m at right now, okay. Not to be evasive, number 1 – if you were a cult leader, it’s very hard to see you say - like saying to a fish in the water, do you swim in the water? No? Agree, yeah! It’s a word you don’t find in the NT. But a word you do find is “sect,” false prophet, arrogance, leaders losing connection with the head, douse, God is putting out the church, you find that stuff.

Here’s how I would answer that. I think – you got a big meeting to help me out here – I think [there are in the ICC?], these are systemic sins. And they’re a struggling group. But I also believe that it did affect the different churches and leaders to various degrees. Everybody was affected. There are some leaders I would now say, man they are Cult Leaders. And [in contrast] there are some places I’ve been like in India, some places in Africa, Harrisburg, Virginia, and more, but not a lot. We’ve never been told this is what you have to preach, but there’s a controlling nature, which you know, there’s a culture of deceit, which you know about, there’s abuse, totalitarianism, to different degrees.

I would say that the ICOC is a sect with a lot of very cult-like tendencies, especially some places. I would never be commanded, “This is what you’ve got to preach and teach.” I can’t ever remember ever being given that – “this is what you have to preach and teach,” in terms of theology, in terms of [prejudice?]. But the culture of control that you know about –invasiveness, money, bad theology – that’s prevalent as all of us know. But I think the ICOC was infested, infected, with abberational theology.

The one I am burdened with, that I struggle with all the time is, “Are there any brothers and sisters there?” Sure. You guys became Christians in the ICOC. And I go, no matter how lukewarm in [Thessalonica?] or worldly they were in Corinth or legalistic in Galatia, the converts themselves must be going “well, Amen, through all this junk – I’ve found Christ. Why it’s so difficult for me ( and you don’t think it should be difficult) is,
I truly believe with all my heart that there is only one true church. Not like “we’re the true church” not that way, but there is one body, one church. And, like it or not, accept it or not, admit or not, if you’re a Christian, you’re a part of it. Among that family there’s aberrations, there’s wickedness. It’s like you have a family with 13 kids. One becomes a murderer, one’s a teacher, one’s a banker, one’s this, one’s a cult leader. These are your kids!

And this is my struggle right now, it really is. Because people want me to just absolutely, “you cannot associate with the ICOC anymore, in any way, shape or form.” I’m just not there yet. I know some of you are - “I am done, period!” But I feel like there are Christians.

And I think there are leaders that are completely unrepented. I think New York is a fiasco, and I support your decision, I respect it. In other places, I feel there are Christians…. There are some churches I think still guilty that have renounced the ICOC. You know what I mean? But it’s like, let’s say in Vancouver – we didn’t sign an affiliation agreement. In fact, if we did, I would have been gone. I will no longer be a part of that. The leader has declared his intents to the ICOC to go to Dallas. No one is over us, the money is not going nowhere.

Some people don’t think that’s enough. I mean that’s – now what they should they do in Vancouver, what if the whole church is really trying to change? I think some are doing it. I think Salt Lake. Others, no. I wouldn’t go to San Francisco and I certainly done with that. I think the ICOC is abberational, is just severely lacking repentance. Those who have light and don’t act on them, you’re under the curse of God. But I do think people have to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling.

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Friday, October 24, 2003

Will the Leaders Ever Understand How Cruel They Were?


You reap what you sow. A response to a former WML who wrote about returning to the secular world.

This is one of the most powerful posts I've read: about a leader who writes about her realizations, about returning to a normal working life and learning how "privileged," and Cruel, her life was as an ICOC minister. It was not the sacrifice that she believed it was.


I wonder how many of these leaders now, among those who are scrambling to keep their salaries and benefits, who are crushed with their own self pity over what has "happened," can ever come to a full understanding of the "sins," the injustice, the evil they had ultimately perpetrated.


I really believe these people live the grand delusion. I was talking with a friend who said that Summer McKean had a "nervous breakdown." Some members had accused her of racism (my friend said she believed Summer to be more elitist, than racist). Well, no wonder. The woman had been raised to believe this illusory, insane life was right, was good, was sacrificial. People who have never had a "pre-ICC" life, and fully embraced the church's system - how lost! A person who was cruel, who deserves all the enemies in the world. How dare she have any pity for herself. I sure would not want to be in her shoes. But how can you deny the injustice in her life as well?


It takes a person with incredibly strong character, backbone, and conscience - not in the ICC way but in the truest way - to resist this brainwashing and do what is right. Even more when you are raised in the church. Obviously Summer did not have this. I admire the fact that Olivia had the backbone to eventually leave, though I know it was difficult for her.


I have to say, so many people lose in this situation. The leaders who are still comfortable do not suffer now, but I am certain their reward for their cruelty - the wrath of "God" or whoever it is - is not finished, is coming to them, and I do not feel any pity for them.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6122.92 "Why Leaders Must Get Out"

The original post:

Letter from long-time annonymous former staff person:


As background in case you don't know me - I was baptized in XXX in
l9XX, moved to XXX on the mission team in XX, worked as a XXXX for XXX, then went into the ministry at XX years old. My husband and I married in XX, and we moved wherever we were asked (more times than I can count), and sold everything to move Overseas for XX years before returning to the U.S. and coming to back to U.S.


We resigned from the ministry after over many years. I felt so much pressure to produce numbers, look a certain way, dress a certain way, have a beautiful home, make the stage at church beautiful, have beautiful people singing on stage, etc. - in short, a lot of emphasis on all the wrong things, but I didn't realize it at the time.


Having been in the ministry for a long time, and now having worked in
secular jobs for over XX years, I feel I have a unique perspective. I had no idea while I was in the ministry how out of touch I was with what "real" or "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives were.


I don't think anyone who has been in the ministry for years, especially if they went into the ministry straight out of college and never worked, can really grasp this until you've experienced it. I cannot emphasize enough to not underestimate how difficult it is to change the way you have thought when you have been in the ministry for years & years.


I hadn't taught in the Sunday school program since l983, although I had counselled (and corrected and rebuked) people on their attitudes about teaching. I had no idea what it was like when Wednesday night classes ran late, and what it was like to try to pick up the pieces of 2 tired children on Thursday morning at 6:45 trying to get them to school.


After only my first week working at the Medical Center as a XX for 12 hour shifts, the realization hit me how demanding I had thought my schedule was when I was on staff - now every day was much more intense than that staff meeting Tuesday as I went to work, tried to cook dinner before I left in the morning, arranged childcare for my children, etc. I was used to always being right, always having my opinion be the right one, telling people what to do all day long, and thinking I always knew better.


After resigning, it was the best thing that ever happened to us to stay where we had led (not go somewhere else, and certainly not to go somewhere else and accept another ministry job! that certainly wouldn't fit the definition of resignation) and learn the MANY lessons that we needed to learn. It was humbling and difficult to be on the other side of the pulpit, but you get a different, and very valuable view from there.


It's hard to explain the mindset that occurs when you have been in the
ministry for a long time. I really thought that being in the ministry was the only thing worth doing, that only the "best" people could do it, and so I looked down on everyone else for not being "sharp" enough to be in the ministry.


I was used to always being right, making judgements about big, little and totally unimportant things and expecting the people around me to do things my way, always having people help me with my responsibilities in life, being able to delegate anything I didn't want to do, having babysitters always readily available, using people to get my goals accomplished and make me look good (although at the time I thought it was sincere and best for them), etc. The pride and arrogance were overwhelming.


It has taken years to understand that no one else in the church has this carte blanche lifestyle. (We could sure use some of those babysitters now!!)


Recently, a couple we are close to came to us asking for a short term loan to be able to buy their child glasses. The husband has a full time job and a masters degree and the wife works part time. It hit me this is how most of the middle class in the United States lives - one thing goes wrong (a broken transmission, needing new glasses, an unexpected medical bill) and you are unable to meet your financial obligations. When you're in the ministry, all of your needs are met: medical insurance (even co-pays), mileage allowances for travel, expense account allowances for housing and entertainment, and so you are shielded from this kind of financial pressure.


So we asked people to be sacrificial, when really we weren't experiencing any real kind of financial sacrifice ourselves, as all of our needs were always met.


Myself, as well as all of the "old-timers" who have been in the ministry for years, have built a crumbling mess. It has not been easy to "fix" me (especially my thinking) and even after 4 years out of the ministry, I'm still not "fixed" because I have been trained in elitism, arrogance, harshness, judgementalism, and pride.


I am extremely concerned about the rushing stampede to hire Sam Laing to come to Athens. It is obvious the many strengths that Sam and Geri have to offer - their marriage, family, counselling ability, etc. But, from my viewpoint after having been in the ministry for over 1/3 of my life, having had 32 years in the ministry is not a plus, but a serious minus.


I have nothing against Sam & Geri Laing, but I have seen the mindset, priviledges, lifestyle and thought process that a leader on his "level" or "tier" in the ICOC system has been steeped in. I also believe many of these mindsets will not even be obvious to Sam for a long time, because we have been thoroughly indoctrinated in that way of thinking.


I believe that Sam is sincere in wanting to repent and that the Triangle church in many ways wasn't as oppressive or controlling as some of the ICOC churches have been, yet it will take time, and many painful conversations, to learn a new way of thinking and dealing with people. Leaving a church after resigning to come somewhere else without staying and learning the lessons there is a red flag to me too. I don't even think it is possible to know what those lessons might even be except with the passing of time.


I haven't seen any evidence of repentance, or even openness, about finances or leaders lifestyles. And although it hasn't been said, I wonder if this rush to hire the Laings has a lot to do with when their severance package expires. I don't want the church to make any huge decisions rashly and without everyone feeling great about the decisions, especially because of money issues.


http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6122.1 "Why Leaders Must Get Out"

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Sunday, October 12, 2003

Confession of a Former ICOC Evangelist

This is a truly amazing testimonial by Gustavo Sassano of the Buenos Aires, Argentina church. He was a full-time ministry leader for almost 13 years (March 1989 to November 2001).


My name is Gustavo Sassano, from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I was a full-time ministry leader in the International Church of Christ (ICOC) for almost 13 years, from March 1989 to November 2001. I am sharing my story because I want to tell people about the destructive practices that I committed and false doctrines that I taught when I was a leader in the church. I want to confess my sins and educate people about the danger of the organization that I believe is a cult. This is my story.
I was converted in 1988 (recruited) when I was 23 years old in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I was studying Law in the university of Buenos Aires. A friend of mine, who was working with me, invited me to a Bible discussion. It took me seven months to get baptized. I was an idealistic person. I wanted to change the world, and I thought I had found that possibility through Jesus. I was innocent at that time. I entered in the ministry only five months after my conversion. I didn’t finish the university because at that time in the ICOC, you had to choose between the university or the ministry. I decided to enter the ministry. I was ignorant. I’m ignorant today too!!! I ate my bible every day. I dreamed a lot about conquering the world for Christ. I didn’t know that I was advancing a cult.

I was a missionary to Chile in 1990. Ten months after the missionary team arrived to Chile, the lead evangelist, Andrew Giambarba had to return to Argentina and I became the leader of the mission in Chile. I was so young and ignorant to occupy that position. I was so stupid, arrogant and prideful. I preached like I was the big thing. How wrong I was. I spent a lot of time shouting, ordering, and criticizing other religions and other christians.

I got married with Claudia in 1990 in Chile. I had to marry her in Chile. Only my mother came to my wedding. That was so bad. I received a lot of letters of my family criticizing my decision to do the wedding in Chile instead of Argentina. It was something radical to do that. It was a common ICOC thing. Being radical and stupid at the same time.

I went to Mexico in 1992 to live there. The "church" in Mexico was growing a lot. At that time if you want to grow “spiritually” (It means growing in the ICOC system) you had to be in the ICOC of Mexico. There I learned the worst teachings and techniques. The lead evangelist was Phil Lamb and after him, Peter Garcia. For example, I learned in Mexico how to make people feel bad about their lives when they didn’t follow the ICOC rules. I learned there how to put pressure into people. The purpose of every staff meeting was to make everybody or someone in particular feel bad (the staff referred to these meetings as "Breaking sessions") It was so common to hear shouting in the staff meeting, making the staff feel bad about their ministry, until some of them cried. Not a joke, that was real.

We started to talk a lot about statistics. Kip McKean, founder of the ICOC and Los Angeles church was applying those statistics and we started to do the same. Statistics about how many people every member brought. I remember very well how bad many in the staff felt about taking so many numbers. The lead evangelist measured all our lives with the statistics. That was the only way to measure a leader. It was so awful. Obviously, we couldn’t complain. Some did and they were treated so badly. We started to get angry every time the statistics were bad. I shouted at my leaders meetings, I shouted to people in my zone of the church and I did everything possible to change and to have better statistics. Everyone around me behaved in the same way. I think that at that time I lost my love for God and the people and I started to look for success in the ministry. Every staff meeting, the lead evangelist made us feel bad about something in our lives, with statistics in his hand.

I learned how to control every person's life. We called it discipleship. Now, for me, it was control. We spread the sins of many rank and file members in our leaders meetings. Nobody had a private life, nobody.

In addition to the breaking sessions, we would have more casual staff meetings. During those more relaxed meetings, the men smoked cigars, drank tequila (a lot) and we talked about the most stupid and offensive things. We always were talking about the sins of people in the church, leaders or rank and file members. Gossip was the first thing in our mouth. Those times were so common. When a goal was achieved, such as meeting a monthly baptism quota, we went to the most expensive restaurant in the city. Man, we ate like lions. We spend too much money. A person in Mexico could live for one month with the money that I spent on my dinner. I feel ashamed about it now, because we used contribution money to pay for these expensive dinners.

The pressure to get the special contribution was so heavy. I received a lot of pressure from above to collect special contribution. Because of this, I put heavy pressure on the disciples who were in my ministry to give money for special contribution. The leaders, including me, made everybody feel guilty if they didn’t come up with the money to give.

The time I spent in Mexico was the worst in terms of learning the worst of the ICOC “ministry”: pressure, guilt, a lot of statistics, shouting, ordering and so on. The worst thing was the breaking session. If a member, or leader, or staff member was not “doing well spiritually”, we met with him/her. I said we, because we were 3 to 5 against the weak member or leader. We told him/her a lot of things, shouted if necessary, humiliated him, sometimes in front of his wife/her husband, until the person was broken (meaning that they cried and agreed to do whatever the breakers thought that person should do).They did that with me several times. I did that many, many times. We learned from the example of our lead evangelist and his wife, how to break someone. We did the same every time we could. They did that to me every time they could. People cried in their breaking sessions. My wife and I cried many times.

When I returned to Argentina in 1994, I brought all the things that I learned in Mexico with me. I started to lead the ICOC in Argentina. I applied the techniques and teachings I learned to my ministry in Buenos Aires. It was a nightmare!! I think that now. At that time, I felt good about what I was doing. My “ministry” began to grow, and I felt pride. How shameful!! But after a while, people began to get tired. The ICOC schedule was killing people. Every week, we had three church meetings (bible talk, midweek and Sunday service) one discipleship time (an encounter between a member and his assigned “teacher in the faith”), plus daily evangelism and every day contact with someone, like phone calls to others members, to report our evangelism, people to bring to church on Sunday, plus a lot of studies with non-members. Our week was full of activities. Someone could hardly ever visit his family.

One time we told people to put Mondays aside to get together with their families. What a stupid command! Only one day for the family! I was living only 10 minutes from my parents and I visited them only once in a regular week. I feel so bad. My family suffered a lot. One time, while I was single, my mom got mad about my schedule in the church. A doctor had to come to our house to calm her down. It was an extreme experience. I will never forget that day. And I used that experience to tell everybody that our family will persecute us for being “Christians”. But my mother was not persecuting me. She was just so upset about the way the church schedule was hurting my relationship with my family. Today I strongly believe that the ICOC destroys family relationships. Members take a lot of distance of their parents and become very judgmental about their lives. I’m so sorry about how deeply I hurt my parents during my time in the ICOC.

With so many activities, many people began to complain. I accused them of not being committed enough. I shouted at them. I tried to kick them out of the church because they were not committed enough. We used to do that a lot. It was a common practice, to throw people out from church because they were “rebels” against the system or not “fruitful”, meaning they did not bring new people to church. I have talked with many ex-members and members about these episodes. They feel bad about those times. Imagine if you had to sit down with a leader in a room, and he started to ask you a lot of questions about your life. After that, if he found that you weren’t a good disciple, he could throw you out of church or give you some time to prove that you were a good disciple. Awful! Many people were thrown away. I hear that before I returned to Argentina, the staff threw away a lot of members.

I committed a lot of sins against God and the people in the church with my anger and pride and pressure. I am so ashamed right now. I caused a lot of damage with my bad temper. One time I shouted to my secretary and I threw away all the things she had in her hands. I fired her for stupid reasons and in a bad, bad way. I’m so sorry about that. I was known for my bad temper and pride. Once I struck a wall in the middle of staff meeting, I almost struck one person there. I saw many of these episodes of shouting, striking things in many places and situations. I did the same.

The ministry in Argentina started to decline. Many people started to leave the church. They had reasons to do that. There were a lot of complaints from the rank and file about my bad leadership. At that time I fought with everyone to protect me. I hurt many.

In March 1999 I went to Brazil with my wife and my two daughters for six months to “recover spiritually”. It was another awful experience. They were doing a lot of statistics, in some meetings up to eleven pages!! Every action was recorded. For example, we had to take note of every daily quiet time that every member had weekly. It was a nightmare. They were losing thousands of members a year and they needed to recruit a lot more to keep growing the cult. And when they achieved goals, we did the same as we did in Mexico: expensive restaurants, a lot of alcohol and “unfit-for-rank-and-file-members-jokes”.

I lost the leadership of the Buenos Aires church in 1999 because of my bad temper and bad statistics. The church in BA was not growing. John Porter, GSL in our world sector, took me out of leadership. He was mad because he had to put one of his leaders in Brazil to lead in Argentina. He said that all was my fault. He talked with me with his angry eyes and voice. In the ICOC, letting leaders go to other places to lead was not a good idea. All church leaders wanted to keep their leaders in their area of influence so as to make sure that these leaders would contribute to their growth. I decided to stay in Buenos Aires because I wanted to show everybody there that I was totally committed to repentance. It was common practice in the ICOC that when a leader was taken away, it was “better for him” and the church that he went to another church to recover. I decided to stay.

John Reus took my place in the leadership in Argentina. But he stayed only six months and then Martin and Carmen Bentley came to lead Argentina in January 2001. At first, I thought that they would be mature leadership for Argentina. But I found Martin to be the most hard and close-minded person I had ever met. I said to myself so many times that year: “I don’t want to be like him. I don’t want to have 30 years in the faith with a mind so closed.”

He was the ICOC system in person. He represented the system in a very common and harmful way: the “stealth” way. Gentle in the outside but a different person inside. He came to Argentina to represent the ICOC. To rescue Argentina from the division. In L.A, they didn't want another division in the ICOC. I found that most leaders in the ICOC were that way, one thing in the outside, but another very different thing in the inside. "Their words drip honey but their hearts are set on war". My wife told me that many times. She was tired of this behaviour in the upper leadership. My wife said "behind the smiling face is a stab you will receive as soon as you turn around".

Martin Bentley started to preach the “Only True Church” doctrine from the very first message. He preached that we were the only people saved in Argentina. He said in many sermons “when God sees Argentina, He only find his sons in this room.” Many people in the church began to leave because of this teaching. Many didn’t believe that we were the only true church anymore. They started to talk about it with other members and to denounce this false doctrine.

The staff started to mark people. They marked one ex staff member, because he didn’t believe in the One True Church doctrine anymore. After that Martin Bentley, the lead evangelist, started to mark a lot of people for the same reason. And many others, members and ex-members, seven or eight in one day, only because they began to criticize the ICOC. The criticism was always about the OTC doctrine, the contribution and the lifestyle of the staff. The other leaders started to think that I was a traitor to the ICOC cause because I began to tell the staff that we had to stop markings. One time I had an encounter with an ex-member that the staff marked. She talked with me about the ICOC being a cult. I mentioned to the staff and they didn’t like that I had that conversation with her. They considered her and many ex-members enemies.

I began to read a lot of books from other Christians and preachers with an open mind, such as Lucado, Hybels, Yancey, Palau, and many others. They opened my eyes. I learned about grace, love, tolerance. I started to believe in my heart that they were my brothers. I realized that we in the church were like the Pharisees in the Bible. We were leaders without grace, leaders with hard hearts, without love in our hearts. In spite of what I was learning, I was still following the ICOC rules. I had faith that the ICOC could change. When I talked with the leadership about the mistakes and sins of the ICOC, they always told me the same: “Things will change. Just wait.” I believed that. I wanted that. That is the main reason why I didn’t leave the ICOC before. But in my heart, I was a coward. I wanted to innovate and change, but not to lose my job. I knew that they didn't want to listen to me.

Around this time, I began to listen to a lot of the critics on the internet. I criticized them a lot. I sent horrible emails to them and to ex-members. But in my heart, my doubts started to grow. I’m so thankful to Reveal, to the ICC Discussion forum, and to many other websites, because they made me think. I didn’t want to. It was like a war between my horrible pride and the truth. I didn’t want to believe that it all was a big, big mistake. My life was a mistake. I threw away 15 years of my life in a big lie. It wasn’t easy to swallow. I know about my good intentions to seek and to serve God, but these are not excuses to make so many mistakes and sins.

I began to listen to some friends who had left the ICOC. They told me that the ICOC was a cult. I began to read a lot about it. I couldn’t believe that the ICOC was a cult, but I had so many proofs about it. I read a lot, I thought a lot. I fought with myself and with old friends. They told me the truth about the ICOC. I’m thankful to all of them for their patience and love. Some of them were patient and some of them didn’t want to talk with me anymore. I understand them now. I have hurt them a lot. I deserve their silence and distance. I was a bad, bad person.

I began to see things in the ICOC from another point of view. I was sitting there listening to other leaders preach the same every time. What boring sermons!! I started to understand why people were feeling bad about themselves. The messages were always about something that we didn’t do well or something that we need to do, like evangelism (I don’t consider it evangelism now. It is recruiting).

I started to hate statistics. We had a lot of statistics! We collected statistics regarding visitors for Sunday services, visitors for bible talks, possible visitors for Sunday service, people studying the Bible, quiet times, discipleship times, contribution, and daily evangelism sometimes. It was a lot of information to ask every member. I realized that statistics made people feel bad. WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE A CHURCH NOT A COMPANY. But I began to think that the ICOC wasn’t a church. It was a company. One time, a friend of mine who came to my home saw the ICOC statistics and he gave me a hard speech about the wrong of statistics in the ICOC and the useless and damaging way that we had to ask and read the statistics. He told me that we were a company instead of a church. And worst than a company, because he told me that no one in a company asks for statistics in that way and never weekly statistics because no one can evaluate something in such short time. One of my friends in the ICOC who left the cult, told me the same thing. He hated the statistics and he saw the damage that we were doing to people. I didn’t listen to him. I have big regrets about that. I apologized to him for this and many things that I committed against him.

I began to hate the special contribution too. It was a lot of pressure and now I was feeling that pressure.

I began to listen to all leaders in the ICOC, in a different way, and I began to understand a lot all the false doctrines and teachings. The KNN and the DPI books made me realize that the ICOC was wrong on a lot of topics. They were writing so many lies and stupid and non-biblical things. Rules, and more rules. Always making people feel guilty. Pride and more pride about our achievements and the McKean family's achievements. The McKeans were the Super family. It was so disgusting. I couldn’t it believe anymore. One time my lead evangelist, married to Elena McKean's sister, told me about Kip: “He never listens to anybody. It is always his way only.” I knew that this guy, Kip, wasn´t who all leaders were talking about. I started to read again Revolution Through Restoration 1 and 2, and the preachings in my church, and I began to discover the truth and the mistakes.

This a list of things that I began to not believe anymore at that time and why.

• We were the only true church on Earth. I couldn’t believe this anymore. I began to doubt that we were a church and I started to think that we were a cult. This kind of teaching was so common in cults.
• We were the only people saved on Earth. No way! I started to see other Christians like my brothers in Christ. I have no right to condemn other people. I got tired to send people to hell because they were not members of the ICOC. I have many regrets in this area. Many left the ICOC thinking that they were going to hell. They suffered a lot because of that. We called them fall-aways. I’m so sorry about that. I have talked with some of them, they told me that they felt so bad at that time and it took time to recover.
• If someone is not discipled by other disciple, (hierarchical system) you were not a Christian and you were not saved. The discipleship one over one caused a lot of damage in the ICOC members. Many became people who never thought for themselves anymore. This is one my bigger regrets, because I know many that have stopped thinking for themselves. The damage in this area is bigger than most of icoc members and ex-members, including me, can measure. We told people what to do, when to do it and how to do it. We controlled every area of their lives. We asked married people when the last time they had sex was and we were asking these kind of questions all the time to married people. We decided who would marry whom and when. That was disgusting. A lot of rules in dating. People were discouraged to date who they really wanted. We, in the staff, talked a lot about who should marry whom. We arranged many dates. We would prevent a member with leadership potential to date with another member, because he/she was not good for the leadership.
• Disciple=Christian=Saved. That was a big lie. We had to baptize only people who went though all the ICOC studies. That was the conclusion Kip taught every time that I listened to him in every meeting or conference. For me it was something like Pharisee=ICOC member=Saved.
• Kingdom of God = The church. I didn’t believe that anymore. The ICOC taught this false idea to use Matthew 6:33 to push people to put first the ICOC.
• Special contribution was taught every time in every meeting. It was all about money. People in my church were tired of giving and giving 15 or 16 times their weekly contribution every year.
• If you have not baptized someone personally in the last year, then you are a bad leader or you are a lost member. I began to realize that John 15, a scripture that the ICOC used to teach that we have to be fruitful by bringing people to church, was applied in a wrong way. In John 15, Jesus was talking about the fruits of the Spirit, love, joy, patience, etc.
• Church autonomy. I did not agree with following the Los Angeles Church, the “Super Church” that all of us in the ICOC had to follow and obey. I didn’t want to obey Kip McKean or any leader outside my church. I didn’t want to follow the church in Brazil, our church above us in Argentina. That was subversive thinking in the ICOC.
• Bringing visitors every week to church meetings. We weren’t saving people. We were recruiting people. We invited them to a service. It was not common to talk about Jesus. All was about “the wonderful” ICOC. The studies tried to conform people to the ICOC not to Jesus.
• Not miss any church meeting. But we have a lot of meetings! I saw that it wasn’t right to ask to people to follow the ICOC schedule. It was made for people in the ministry, not for rank and file members with a jobs and family.
• Lifestyle of the leadership. All of us leaders were earning a lot of money and all of us were living in nice houses or apartments. We were paid Health Insurance. We ate in restaurants (expensive ones sometimes) with other people and we got reimbursement, the same with gas. We went to conferences and we stayed at the best rooms in the nicest hotels. In those conferences we went to eat every day in a different fancy restaurant. I was earning $US 3400 a month in Argentina, plus Health Insurance, about $US 300. I know that my leaders above were making $US $7000 to $10,000 a month plus many reimbursements.
• The lack of preparation in the lives of the people in the staff. The staff in the ICOC was not prepared to lead churches. I started to lead a church with two years in the faith, without any professional training and with a marriage of only two months. It was stupid to put me in the leadership. It was a nightmare to me and to the people in the church. Many churches in Latin America are being led right now by young leaders without any knowledge about the ministry. They are right now leading churches, giving sermons, without preparation. They will destroy people’s lives. The ICOC is making the same mistakes all over again. They will never learn. We, the staff, were giving a lot of advice to people in every area, but without any real knowledge. All of it was our ideas. I gave a lot of stupid advice. I discipled marriages older than mine, I gave advice about how to raise kids when I didn’t have any! I couldn’t support anymore my lack of preparation. And I looked around in the leadership and I couldn’t find anyone with real and deep preparation. WSL and GSL alike didn’t have any preparation. Their teachings were so empty. Everything in the ICOC was improvisation. We played with people’s lives. Most of the leaders know how to run the ICOC system, but they don’t know anything about REAL ministry. I listened to hundred boring sermons, empty messages.
• The control of outside information. Typical cultic practice. We couldn’t read any criticism or talk with critics. We called any criticism in the internet "spiritual pornography." I learned that this technique was so common in cults. I decided that I will read all that I found against the ICOC. When we marked people from the pulpit for being critics, we couldn’t talk with them. Many families were destroyed by this. In Buenos Aires, the Henry Kriete letter was not allowed to be read. The lead evangelist in Argentina Flavio Uribe, who is making thousands of dollars a month for leading a geographical sector (a leader from Colombia said that He is making $US 10,000 dollars a month. I hope this is not true. Or perhaps, not true anymore), said that he didn’t want to read Henry Kriete's letter. Many in the Argentina church followed him in that idea. He called a meeting for all members in the church in Buenos Aires. He wanted all members to confess their sins. He explained that the problem was not the HK letter and all the false doctrines but the sin in the member’s lives. Many decided not to go to that meeting. They said to me that they didn’t want to be manipulated again. They wanted the truth. More than a hundred have left the church since that time because they wanted to read the letter and make real changes to the church. Now there are 80 or fewer members, when Argentina had almost 300 in 1999.
• Complaints about weight. I listened to many messages and comments about our weight. Kip McKean said one time that we, the staff, were disgusting because many of us were overweight. It was very common that if someone was overweight, the staff didn’t let him to participate in leadership, or singing or serving. It was pure discrimination.

In the middle of 2001, when I started to realize all the false teachings and bad practices of the church, I began to have a lot of trouble sleeping. I was awake until 4 or 5 in the morning. I had no peace in my life and I knew that I had betrayed my best friends in the ICOC (I will explain better that later) and God, preaching that the ICOC was the only true church (OTC doctrine) and we were the only saved people on Earth, for so many years.

I didn't want to do anything in the ministry because I started to think that all was a big mistake. I was hating the staff meetings. The staff meeting was always the same. Boring, and full of ICOC techniques. I was tired of all that.

I had already lost most of my friends. They left because of the OTC doctrine and many other things, such as the pressure to give contribution and the special contribution, etc. I missed a lot my friends but, at that time, I was very hard with them. I was defending the church in front of them but in my heart I was believing the same things that they were exposing. I feel very bad about that. Sometimes I want to travel in time to change so many things. Why did I do that to my friends? Why did I hurt them? I miss the people who don't want to talk with me anymore. Sometimes I have dreams/nightmares with them. I’m so sorry. I destroyed so many lives. They have the right to not want to talk with me anymore. I deserve that.

And when I remembered my life as an evangelist, I found it horrible. I was an easily angered person, I learned how to put pressure in people's lives and I was living for statistics. It was an awful time. I hurt many. I was a big and horrible example of a cult leader. Nobody wanted to talk with me. All people were afraid to talk with me because of my bad temper. I was prideful, arrogant and not a gentle person. I was like a general, all the time giving orders. I saw the church like an army. I tried sometimes to raise a big family in the church, but I always followed the orders from above: getting more baptisms, filling the statistics forms, executing the plans from above.

I didn't leave the ministry, they fired me in November 2001. They told me that the reason was that my zone, the marrieds, was not baptizing enough people. But the real reason was that I told the lead evangelist Martin Bentley that I will never believe or preach the OTC again in my life. I told him that I prefer to sell food in the street rather than to preach the OTC again. In the past, I was a coward and I was trying to keep my job. But one day I couldn't keep my mouth closed anymore. Less than a month after that conversation I was fired.

When I got fired, Martin Bentley told me that the church would not to pay my severance if I began to criticize the ICOC. Those words shocked me. I couldn’t believe my ears. It was one of the worst things that happened to me. 15 years in the ICOC, 14 in the ministry, and they treated me like a demon. But now I understand that they did to me the same that I did to others. I was receiving the same that I gave to others. But it was a horrible experience. I deserved it.

I called the World Sector Leader, Peter Garcia. I thought that he would understand my points. But he insulted me about “losing my convictions” about the OTC doctrine. He believed that we were the only true church. He treated me very badly. Since then most members in the ICOC of Argentina began to criticize me a lot, calling me bitter and many other things. I heard that at that time, after I moved to Miami, from the pulpit the staff began to say that I was weak with sin in my life and almost losing my faith and falling away.

I was convinced that we weren't the only church and that there were a lot of Christians everywhere. I couldn’t accept anymore that singles have to marry only ICOC people. When I talked with singles I began to feel that something was very wrong. I began to suffer when I saw them - a guilty feeling. I was leaving church (cult) meetings to go to my home with my wife and daughters but the singles were leaving alone, without any hope about finding a soul mate. I couldn’t support that anymore. They were staying singles for years, 13, 15 or more years. All because of an arrogant and stupid teaching that I taught, the OTC doctrine.

The OTC doctrine was dead in my mind and in my heart. I knew that a lot of people were suffering because so many false doctrines and the lack of grace. I was the teacher of all that crap. I was a cult leader. I was like the devil, making my brothers feel guilty about their faults every time I could. I was preaching against God, because He is a merciful God. I was preaching against my brothers and sisters in other churches. Now I feel bad about that. Sometimes, when I go to a Christian Bookstore near my home, I feel bad when I look at the others Christians there. They don’t know what I was. But I know, and that makes me feel bad.

After I got fired, I began to open my heart. I told the lead evangelist too that we needed to move from our houses because they were so expensive to rent. The lead evangelist was paying more than $US 2000 and in Argentina that is a lot of money. I was paying $US 700 at that time for my apartment and that was so expensive!! We were living an easy life with money from the people.

I have to say that Jaime De Anda, elder of our World Sector helped me when I got fired. He apologized for the things that Martin Bentley did to me and my wife. (By the way the Bentley’s have never apologized to us for what they did to us). My best friend and former GSL Andrew Giambarba and his wife Mariana helped us a lot. We always will have a debt of love with them. They invited us to Miami to stay there in the middle of our pain. The South Florida Church helped us a lot, and I’m thankful with a lot of people there like the elders, our evangelist and women’s leader during our time there, Ralph and Aileen Ojeda, and many couples that gave us their hearts and their financial help. We are so thankful to all of them. I love them and miss them a lot. But it is obviously difficult to maintain the friendship because many of them are still members, and I don’t agree with how the elders and the Porter’s are running the ICOC there and how they treated Andrew because he quit. That was a shame.

I left the ICOC this year. It was a long process. The Henry Kriete letter gave me a lot of reasons to leave because it validated a lot of my doubts and concerns. I was so happy when I first read it. But I don’t agree with him staying in the ICOC. I can’t accept it. It's his decision, but I don’t agree. At that time, when HK letter was out, I had hope that things would change. How stupid I was. The ICOC upper leadership, WSL and many GSL, didn’t want to be radical. They didn’t want to make real and deep changes. They wanted to protect their jobs. They are sending their children to school and universities. They can’t stop running the ICOC. Here in Argentina every staff leader is sending their children to private schools. It costs a lot of money that they will not get in other jobs. They want to control people’s lives. I can’t believe that they are preaching, teaching and attending conferences. They must resign and stop attending the ICOC and look for different jobs. It’s hard to accept that someone like Kip McKean, ICOC founder, after all damage that he has caused, is leading a church. It shows me that they are not getting what happened with the ICOC. They can’t accept it. I talked with many leaders in many places. They just don’t get it. I know that it is difficult to realize what I was, a cult leader. It’s a hard truth. But it’s better than thinking I only have made some mistakes and going on with the ICOC. Many in the ICOC are in denial. I was there, I can understand. I believe that the ICOC leaders need to pay for their sins in the ministry with a real repentance. I don’t know any ICOC leader who has shown real and deep repentance. They don’t feel the heavy burden that they deserve to feel. Leaders in the ICOC believe that God called them to preach, but after all that I saw in the ICOC, I believe that God is calling all of them to work in a regular job!!!

The last thing that gave me the strength to leave was that I saw my best friend Andrew Giambarba fighting the upper leadership to get things right in the ICOC. But they didn’t listen to him. Instead of that, they persecuted him and criticized him a lot. It was so bad. I know him, very well, and I know the nightmare that he went through. He quit his job, and he was a Geographic Sector Leader (GSL), married and with three kids. I know that he shares my feelings about our lives in the ICOC. He feels, like me, extremely guilty about the lives that have been so hurt by this un-godly system.

I have come to the conclusion after my experiences in the ICOC that the ICOC is a cult. It’s my opinion that it is not a church but a cult. The amount of damage in so many members' lives and the number of people that have left the ICOC through the years show me that I was in a dangerous system. I have talked with many ex-members in Argentina and other places and the pain they went through is incalculable. It’s difficult to listen to so many people wounded and not to ask myself "Why did I become part of this group? Why did I hurt so many lives? Why didn’t I leave earlier?" It’s difficult to realize what I did with my life this last 15 years.

Now, I fight with my guilt every day. It's so hard to realize how many people I have hurt. I was a cult leader, which is my definition about my life in the ICOC. I was a coward, I was a bad leader. I have had many bad days when I didn’t want to get up of my bed.

Most of my good friends are outside the ICOC now. I have some in the ICOC, I love them and I’m trying to understand their decision to stay inside.

I have a job, thank God, but I don't know how to do anything else!! I was in the ministry since I was 23. I never pursued my plan to become a lawyer because I left university to enter the ministry.

At least now I feel free of all ICOC man-made chains. That is the best thing that has happened in my life. The future is uncertain, but who knows? Better things are ahead I think. I have my wife, my two daughters, and I’m close to my parents.

I have to say thanks to Nicole of the ICC discussion forum. She gave me the idea to write my story and she made the corrections to my english. Thanks Nicole!!. And I have to give thanks to Andrew for correct other mistakes in my writing and encourage me during my bad days. Thanks to all ex-members in the ICC discussion forum for your hard fight.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=8928.1 "Confession of a Former ICOC Evangelist"

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Wednesday, July 09, 2003

Hilariously true thread... Share YOUR favorite leadership hypocrisy story!


I felt an urge to post a story related to me about the hypocricy of some ICC leaders. I thought about posting this in another folder, then I decided to start my own thread so folks can add/comment and also to make it easier for leaders who chronically lurk, reading here to more easily see the stupidity of their ways.
Here goes my story:

A friend told me that when she and her husband were on staff in a particular region of LA sometime ago, they went on a retreat of sorts to a beutiful hotel. Being low on the totem pole, they unpresumptuously checked-into a small, simple non smoking room on the ground floor. The wife almost cried when springs from the furniture poked her as she sat down. Informing the hotel staff, they were thrilled when the hotel manager apologized and led them to where "the other ICC guests were staying." This couple's jaws hit the floor when lo and behold leaders like Kip, Al, Johnathan Perkins, etc., were staying top floor suites, and were collectively enjoying their own little cocktail party, in their words, strolling from room to room fellowshipping one another.

I can also remember a time when I was waiting for our Region's administrator to finish making some notes in his journal at his appartment years ago. The Region leader called and I tried not to listen as this leader related how he had just had a meeting with Kip in Orange county, it was early afternoon, and he was too tired to drive the twenty miles home. He was therefore checking into a beach front hotel and would like the admin to fax some information to him as he wanted to relax and would return to the region tomorrow...

Sheesh... and they wonder why people won't tithe "no more?"

Sharpie.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7447.1 "Your Favorite Leadership Hypocricy Story"

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Monday, June 30, 2003

This is a letter about the (lack of) progress, the lies and divisiveness escalating in NYC.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I would like to inform you of what’s happening behind the scenes that only a select few have been informed of. Earlier in the week, I spoke with a former ministry leader who informed me that there was a plan in place to put Sheridan Wright to lead Manhattan. Tonight I had a conversation with Norman to confirm all of these plans.

Norman told me, he is stepping down from the Mid-Manhattan Worship Services transition group. Norman, Sam & Sheridan do not believe that our Region is moving in the right direction and that the transition groups are not working. They are planning to hold a midweek service on Wednesday nights at our space on 96th Street & CPW, led by Sheridan Wright. They believe that the church needs a strong leader to run things, basically we need Sheridan and Sam Powell to lead, not these focus groups we have established. Sheridan has stated clearly that Sam is his Elder, and he is not open to any plan that does not include the ICOC. (In other words financial autonomy is not an option) They disagree with the direction our congregation is heading. Anyone who doesn’t agree with them should not come to the worship services on wends day nights. Sheridan is already in the works to find an apartment; he asked me last night to help him look for a two-bedroom apartment in Manhattan. He is already pulling couples out of our region to join them….(i.e. Tom & Pam Gurrentz, Norman & Jeni Vosshulta). So we would be on our own on Tuesday nights…….. I’m presuming we will lose our space.

What bothers me is t hat all of this was done secretly,without any input from the mid-Manhattan Congregation. All the while Norman is pleading with us to be patient with the Church office and give them more time, for us to be united and work together. Meanwhile, plans are in motion to leave us high and dry, completely abandoning the faithful who have persevered and stayed in our Region to serve.

Our leaders promised that things were supposed to be different, that no longer would leadership outside of our local congregation make decisions for what’s best for us…that things will no longer be done in secret ……I really question how much has changed in the last 4 months… (Maybe we need to read Henry Kriete’s Letter again)

Its strange that the Church leadership didn’t have the time to answer our specific questions regarding our finances….but found the time to plan out Sheridan’s move from NJ to NYC…They say we don’t have a worship space on Sundays b/c we don’t have the money for it….but we have the money to negotiate an additional space on wends day nights, and yet we have the money to hire Sheridan (What kind of salary are we offering him??)….all the while we struggle without having a Sunday Space to worship in….We still have no answers to our questions regarding church finances…..and now our loyalty and patience is repaid with a slap in the face!!!!!!…..It seems like they are saying “Thanks Mid- Manhattan, for all the money, time and sacrifice you’ve given us over the years…….but if you don’t like what Sam, Norman & Sheridan believe go find your own worship space….Good luck” (Sounds familiar?????? ---- take a look at the transcript of the Rockland Sermon Sam Preached a few weeks ago…I’ll give you a re-cap..squash transition groups…reinforce the power and authority of the evangelist and elders….and if you don’t like it too bad….you are shown the door…good luck and we’ll pray for you)

Our elders and ministry staff are being completely divisive…we should remain unified as a region and continue to work our Salvation with fear and trembling and not take any action that would cause divisions.

I write this to encourage us to stand up and express our thoughts…this is Jesus’ church, His body…not Sam’s, not Sheridan’s or Norman’s….we need to stand up to them and not allow them to force us out…….we need to stand up and not allow anything to happen that would destroy our Region….lets protect our church’s unity….and not let it be torn apart by anyone. Brothers, sisters, I plead with you to let your thoughts be known….don’t let any man tell you where and when you should worship, we follow Jesus he is our leader…..

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter.

[ name deleted - initials JB ]

http://forums.delphiforums.com/nycoc/messages?msg=122.1 "DIVISIVENESS ESCALATING - New Letter"

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Wednesday, June 18, 2003

The minutes of the June 1, 2003 meeting of the Rockland County (New York Church of Christ) Transition Team is now available.

Also, Groundhogfly in ICC DF has started a thread about initiating a class action lawsuit against the ICC. Contact him at groundhogfly@hotmail.com or enter the discussion at the link.


For years the ICC has been collecting our money for "missions" contributions, and even coercing us to give. Yet a great deal of those monies have NOT been spent on missions.

Further, the church that earlier bragged that the books are open to members at all times has now taken away that right.

I am proposing a class action lawsuit to the following effects:

1. Show us the money. A full accounting of the books from every church, every world sector, KNN, HOPE, DPI, etc.

2. All that money you collected for "missions", but didn't spend on missions, I'd like to have that back, thank you very much.

Nobody would get rich off such a suit, but that's not the point. With the awards, we could:

A. Pay some of the debts we accrued while we were foolishly making the "OTC" our financial priority. Or,

B. Practice, for a change, the Christian principle of helping the poor. Or,

C. Or support real evangelists who actually teach the real gospel, without any of the trappings of institutional "church" to oppress those to whom they preach.

And such an action would get the attention of District Attorneys everywhere, as it would uncover a great deal of fraud and embezzlement. It would also break the bank of ICC, and expose the thugs who run it, so that their minions could have another chance to see straight (though the Bible affords such an opportunity as it is.)

(For those of you who are thinking it's ungodly for a Christian to sue another Christian, I agree with you. And if I held that the ICC organization was from God, I wouldn't be espousing such an action. If they were from God, we'd have seen the books already.)

Anyone else interested in joining such an action?

It has been brought to my attention that some may not wish to discuss this on the forum. Any who are interested can contact me privately at groundhogfly@hotmail.com.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=7038.1 "GROUNDHOGFLY / Class Action Lawsuit"

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Thursday, May 29, 2003


MORE LEADERSHIP LIES ...

This time, by HOPE (a "non-profit" benevolent organization formed by the ICC). On this thread, HOPE has been promoting some volunteer projects that are really feel-good Vacations for the kiddies through "Funinthesun.org." Watch HOPE lie!

This HOPE "volunteer project"/vacation is run by FunintheSon.ORG (FITS). You would be able to find the same announcement under www.funintheson.org through the "Jammin' In Jamaica" link -- but it's now under construction. Hmmm...

FunintheSon.ORG Introduction:
(Relevant sections underlined for clarity)


Welcome to Fun in the Son! Our goal is to help Christians experience the kind of faith building, joy generating, and memory making events that will encourage us in our relationships with each other and with God. All of our events are designed for and organized by members of the International Church of Christ.

However, HOPE's Tom Briscoe denies the connection!

From: Tom_Briscoe@hopeww.org
To: "Ground Hogfly"
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: Re:

Dear Mr. Fly,

Thank you for your recent inquiry. On behalf of HOPE worldwide, please be advised that there is no affiliation between our organization and funintheson.org.

Sincerely,
Tom Briscoe

GHS asks for clarification...

From: Groundhogfly
To: Tom_Briscoe@hopeww.org
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 6:23 PM
Subject: Re:

Mr. Briscoe,
Thank you for your prompt response. Just so that I'm sure I understand, please answer the following for me:

1. Are you saying that HOPE Worldwide does NOT refer HOPE Worldwide Volunteer Corps participants to this travel agency?
2. Are you aware that this Funintheson.org appears to be a not-for-profit organization run by the following?

Phone: 703-748-3105
Douglas Arthur
1201 Old Stable Rd
Mc Lean, VA 22102

3. To whom do you refer your Volunteer Corps participants for travel arrangements?

G. Fly

...and asks FunintheSon.org and I-centric, the web hosting company (turns out it's affiliated with an ICC member) for clarification as well.

From: Groundhogfly
To: customerservice@funintheson.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:08 PM
Subject: Affiliation with HOPE Worldwide

To whom it may concern:

I am researching your company, and wrote to HOPE Worldwide to be sure you were affiliated with them. They have denied it. (See below.)
But when I contacted you web space provider, they informed me that you are affiliated with both HOPE Worldwide, and the ICC.
Would you please comment for the record on whether you are affiliated with HOPE Worldwide, or with the International Churches of Christ?

G. Fly
---------------------------------
From: Groundhogfly
To: michael.bristol@icentric-marketing.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:11 AM
Subject: Funintheson.org

You have recently posted a website a www.funintheson.org. It is my understanding that this company is NOT a not-for-profit organization, and therefore, does not merit a .org designation.

If you have proof that is IS an NPO, would you please forward to me the same by Wednesday, May 28? Else I will assume that you have no proof of this, and will report the violation accordingly.

A reply from I-centric -- yes, FunintheSon.org IS RUN BY ICC !

From: Mike Bristol
To: Groundhogfly
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: Funintheson.org

FunintheSon.org is a run by a church organization (International Church of Christ) and is affiliated with Hope World Wide (which is also a non-profit).

Mike

So what's the story, Al?

From: Groundhogfly
To: Al_Baird@icoc.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:58 PM
Subject: ICC/HOPE/funintheson.org Affiliation

Mr. Baird:

I am contacting you, as I believe you to be the spokesman for the ICC. Would you please comment for the record on whether funintheson.org is affiliated with the ICC?

1. From the appearance of this website (www.funintheson.org), it would appear that it is affiliated with the ICC and/or HOPE Worldwide.
2. HOPE has denied any affiliation with FITS. (See below.)
3. I-Centric Marketing, the company whose server hosts the site, says that FITS is afilliated with BOTH the ICC and HOPE. (See below.)

So I am contacting you on behalf of thousands who are suspicious about this affiliation, for your official comment.

G. Fly

Stay with the news... check out the thread at the URL below.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/messages?msg=6551.1 "HOPE Denies Affiliation w/FunInTheSon"

RELEVANT HISTORICAL LINKS:
Leadership Lifestyles

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